Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Knightly Flail: A Myth? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
James Head





Joined: 09 Mar 2008

Posts: 127

PostPosted: Wed 12 Aug, 2009 11:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Chad! Thanks for the additional images. It's nice to see at least a few examples of a single handed Flail, but the results that we have been able to come up with so far are actually kind of dissapointing. Many of the pictured weapons appear to be modified, like you mentioned yourself. So when were the modifications done? Soon after the weapon broke on the battlefield? Or many centuries later? I'm starting to consider the possibility that the well known Single Handed Flail shape never existed. Is this what it feels like to have your 'faith' shaken?
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
J.W. Salyards





Joined: 11 Aug 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Wed 12 Aug, 2009 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Head wrote:
Hey Chad! Thanks for the additional images. It's nice to see at least a few examples of a single handed Flail, but the results that we have been able to come up with so far are actually kind of dissapointing. Many of the pictured weapons appear to be modified, like you mentioned yourself. So when were the modifications done? Soon after the weapon broke on the battlefield? Or many centuries later? I'm starting to consider the possibility that the well known Single Handed Flail shape never existed. Is this what it feels like to have your 'faith' shaken?


The close-up of a single-handed flail from a 15th c. painting I posted above might not be definitive proof, but still pretty compelling evidence that they might have existed, even if they never saw widespread use. Iconography doesn't always match reality, but in instances when a lot of other details in a scene were historically accurate, I'm inclined to trust it.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Wed 12 Aug, 2009 12:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Head wrote:
Hey Chad! Thanks for the additional images. It's nice to see at least a few examples of a single handed Flail, but the results that we have been able to come up with so far are actually kind of dissapointing. Many of the pictured weapons appear to be modified, like you mentioned yourself. So when were the modifications done? Soon after the weapon broke on the battlefield? Or many centuries later? I'm starting to consider the possibility that the well known Single Handed Flail shape never existed. Is this what it feels like to have your 'faith' shaken?


Glad you liked'em. Happy I slightly wrinkled the page of a very expensive book scanning one of the pics. Worried

There are a number (8 or 9 at least) among those I posted that are single-handed and don't seem modified. The single-handed flail did exist. I doesn't appear to be much of a "medieval" weapon, though, but a Renaissance one.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Eric Myers




Location: Sacramento, CA
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 214

PostPosted: Wed 12 Aug, 2009 4:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
@J.W. Salyards;
I'm not saying a flai, or nuchako for that matter, can not be dangerous. I'm just pointing out that the same head on a rigid shaft would transfer even more energy.


Another important aspect of the flail is that it is more difficult to block than a rigid weapon. Flails with chains can wrap around weapons and shields and hit the defender with quite a bit of force. They also tangle up the defenders weapon which can lead to disarmament.

Eric Myers
Sacramento Sword School
ViaHup.com - Wiki di Scherma Italiana
View user's profile Send private message
Bartek Strojek




Location: Poland
Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Likes: 23 pages

Posts: 497

PostPosted: Wed 12 Aug, 2009 4:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:

The single-handed flail did exist. I doesn't appear to be much of a "medieval" weapon, though, but a Renaissance one.


Actually from what I've read, they're popular even in XI century, mainly in general "Rus" area (modern Belarus, Ukraine, West Russia).

This article can be read by only few gentelmen here

http://bractwo-sanok.widmogrod.info/index.php...scien.html

but it says that earliest flails had head were made out of bones and antler, but soon bronze and iron one appeared too. The "chains" were actually usually leather straps.

As you can see, there are some drawings of flail heads that are said to be owned by Muzeum Wojska Polskiego, there's even typology of them.

It also says that around 130 flails were found, although generally not further west than very east parts of Poland.

Overally there are said to be very popular in XII -XIII century.

There is quite vast bibliography, maybe I'll check some of those books if I'll be able to find them

Here :.

http://bractwo-sanok.widmogrod.info/index.php...odzie.html

this man appears to have a replica
View user's profile Send private message
Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 404

PostPosted: Wed 12 Aug, 2009 5:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Having destructively tested maces and flails. I have to say the mace always seems more destructive. Getting the flail to strike properly is always a bit difficult. Flails take a LOT of practice to even be effective, if you are inexperienced you are as likely to hurt yourself as you are to hurt your target. If you hit armour the head may also glance and bounce back at you. Personally I find a mace to be much easier to use, and equally (if not more) effective. Flails seem not to have been designed to be "extra powerful" maces, but to be a specialized weapon to: go around shields, bind sword blades, pull at armour, etc.
I am being purely speculative on personal experience, so don't hold my words against me. Wink
Best,
Hadrian

Historia magistra vitae est
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 404

PostPosted: Wed 12 Aug, 2009 5:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I actually can't think of a single medieval single handed knightly flail in any museum (I will of course go through my pictures/notes to be sure). I can, however, think of a couple renaissance era flails. There is a 16th century German one I remember seeing but can't find a picture of.
Best,
Hadrian

P.s. Here are some pictures of some single handed flails, they're not exactly "knightly" but I figured you might enjoy.



 Attachment: 40.96 KB
myarmory pic to post.jpg
Here are three, supposedly from 15th-16th cent. You have to take this date with a grain of salt, it comes from a small museum in Eastern Europe and they pre-dated and flat out lied about allot of their weapons...

 Attachment: 30.28 KB
myarmory pic to post.jpg
One supposedly from 14th-15th cent. From a small museum in Hungary. This date may be off, they had some very oddly dated stuff in that museum.

Historia magistra vitae est
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,576

PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 6:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric Myers wrote:
Elling Polden wrote:
@J.W. Salyards;
I'm not saying a flai, or nuchako for that matter, can not be dangerous. I'm just pointing out that the same head on a rigid shaft would transfer even more energy.


Another important aspect of the flail is that it is more difficult to block than a rigid weapon. Flails with chains can wrap around weapons and shields and hit the defender with quite a bit of force. They also tangle up the defenders weapon which can lead to disarmament.


However, you tangle your own weapon at the same time, which is less favorable, and a swordsman will most likely come favourably out of a grappling situation, because he can stabb, and do not need to swing his weapon i a large orbit.

@Bartek
I have seen some of these heads before, presented as "whip ends". They are quite nice, and a lot more credible weapons, in their context, that the large, spiked flails. A weapon like this could actually be quite fast, and would have good effect in a shield wall against a unarmored or ligthly armored men.
It would be unlikely to kill, but as long as you have friends to exploit the openings, it does not matter that mutch.

I could also see them as weapon of authority. As far as I have gathered, maces where often used in this rolle in slavic areas?

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Bartek Strojek




Location: Poland
Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Likes: 23 pages

Posts: 497

PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 5:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:

I could also see them as weapon of authority. As far as I have gathered, maces where often used in this rolle in slavic areas?


Yeah, but generally after middle ages ended too (at least in Poland).
View user's profile Send private message
Eric Myers




Location: Sacramento, CA
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 214

PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 5:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
Eric Myers wrote:
Elling Polden wrote:
@J.W. Salyards;
I'm not saying a flai, or nuchako for that matter, can not be dangerous. I'm just pointing out that the same head on a rigid shaft would transfer even more energy.


Another important aspect of the flail is that it is more difficult to block than a rigid weapon. Flails with chains can wrap around weapons and shields and hit the defender with quite a bit of force. They also tangle up the defenders weapon which can lead to disarmament.


However, you tangle your own weapon at the same time, which is less favorable, and a swordsman will most likely come favourably out of a grappling situation, because he can stabb, and do not need to swing his weapon in a large orbit.


I have no comment on single-handed flails, as I am completely unfamiliar with them, but with the two-handed multi-headed flails that I am familiar with, such as the one illustrated below, the swordsman is unlikely to come out well if the flail tangles his weapon or arm.

Regards,



 Attachment: 137.34 KB
small_perez_mendoza_frontispiece.jpg


Eric Myers
Sacramento Sword School
ViaHup.com - Wiki di Scherma Italiana
View user's profile Send private message
James Head





Joined: 09 Mar 2008

Posts: 127

PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 7:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hadrian Coffin wrote:
Having destructively tested maces and flails. I have to say the mace always seems more destructive. Getting the flail to strike properly is always a bit difficult. Flails take a LOT of practice to even be effective, if you are inexperienced you are as likely to hurt yourself as you are to hurt your target. If you hit armour the head may also glance and bounce back at you. Personally I find a mace to be much easier to use, and equally (if not more) effective. Flails seem not to have been designed to be "extra powerful" maces, but to be a specialized weapon to: go around shields, bind sword blades, pull at armour, etc.
I am being purely speculative on personal experience, so don't hold my words against me. Wink
Best,
Hadrian


Hi Hadrian. First of all, thanks for the great photos of those single handed flails. Awesome stuff!

I know that the commonly held opinion is that the Flail might have been used to wrap around weapons and shields, but I'm not convinced. A Flail on a short handle like the type we've been talking about in this thread seems too unwieldy to be used successfully on foot. There are too many ways to hit yourself or your friend by accident. On the other hand, consider how a single handed Flail would be used from horseback.

If I was riding toward a group of foot soldiers with a Flail in my hand, it would be very easy to crack many of them in the head as I passed by. Holding the handle horizontally would allow the Flail Head to swing freely without much danger of rebounding back toward my hands or horse. Of course this is just my speculation.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
James Head





Joined: 09 Mar 2008

Posts: 127

PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric Myers wrote:

I have no comment on single-handed flails, as I am completely unfamiliar with them, but with the two-handed multi-headed flails that I am familiar with, such as the one illustrated below, the swordsman is unlikely to come out well if the flail tangles his weapon or arm.

Regards,


Hi Eric! Do you have any translated material on the Mangual that you showed in your pic? So far, I've only had access to Paulus Hector Mair's work.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
J.W. Salyards





Joined: 11 Aug 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 8:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Head wrote:


I know that the commonly held opinion is that the Flail might have been used to wrap around weapons and shields, but I'm not convinced. A Flail on a short handle like the type we've been talking about in this thread seems too unwieldy to be used successfully on foot. There are too many ways to hit yourself or your friend by accident. On the other hand, consider how a single handed Flail would be used from horseback.
.


I handled a single handed replica before. And yes, without some serious practice, it is a devil of a thing to control. But a lot of people assume that you have to swing it in wide circles or figure eights, and really, simply snapping the arm and wrist forward, the weighted end does most of the work, and it's much easier to control the trajectory and the rebound. Especially if the chain isn't really long and stops well short of your hand. You can still generate a ton of power with a lot less risk of hitting yourself. I think with enough practice, you could control it on horse or foot. It would take more practice than most weapons though, which is why is was probably such a comparatively rare weapon.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Eric Myers




Location: Sacramento, CA
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 214

PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2009 8:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Head wrote:
Hi Eric! Do you have any translated material on the Mangual that you showed in your pic? So far, I've only had access to Paulus Hector Mair's work.


Hi James, I'm not sure if we really have a decent translation or not, I'll have a look. PM me if you don't hear from me in a couple days about it. What we have is really just some commentary on the mangual, largely comparing it to the montante.

Eric Myers
Sacramento Sword School
ViaHup.com - Wiki di Scherma Italiana
View user's profile Send private message
Jamie Stone




Location: Tulsa, OK
Joined: 05 Feb 2012

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun 05 Feb, 2012 10:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Would anyone like to see photos of my flail? I have read a lot about people not believing they are real and also some people that have seen paintings of them or possibly seen one at a small museum somewhere...Did they really exist? By examining the one I own, you can tell they were real. You can see how old the wood is and how the chain was made. Also, you can see the ball with spikes on it and how it was made as well. This weapon has really gotten me into researching weapons and I would like to learn more about it and others weapons from that time period.

It could possibly date back to around 1300. When you see the photos, you will instantly know that they really did exist and that it is an original flail. Nobody talks about the possibility of having the spiked balls being removable too. Maybe soldiers had a bag of balls they wore on their sides and could easily put a new ball on the chain after embedding the ball into someones skull or armor. I believe that maybe soldiers on horses did not use them as much, however a soldier on a chariot could have easily used them without injuring themselves or their horses. When horses were first bred to carry people and pull light chariots, that would have been a weapon I would have used to protect myself. If King Tutankhamun had a flail, why wouldn't have others have had flails too?

If anyone has any interest about this weapon, please respond. I would like to take some photos of my flail to see what you guys think of it, so I can try to gather some facts about how old it really is and learn more about it. Thanks for reading this post and I hope to hear what you guys have to say about flails.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,641

PostPosted: Sun 05 Feb, 2012 11:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Doesn't really help unless one knows the context. Where was it found? What is the cite for the dig report?

Tut's flail was definitely not a weapon. It was part of Egyptian ceremonial regalia along with the shepherd's crook. Usually they were associated with Osiris. I can't think of any examples of flails being used as weapons during the Bronze Age. They were agricultural tools.



 Attachment: 41.29 KB
Tut - crook and flail.jpg
Source: http://www.touregypt.net/museum/tutl63.htm
View user's profile Send private message
Jamie Stone




Location: Tulsa, OK
Joined: 05 Feb 2012

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply. There is no dig report for my flail. I found it hidden behind the wall of my garage, while I was remodeling it to be my workshop, several years ago. I have it stored in a box and will locate it and take some photos. It is a single handled flail. The wooden handle is about 14" long and you can tell it came from a very old tree. I would be curious to have an expert tell me what kind of tree it is and where the tree originated, to give me an idea of where it came from. The hand made chain holds the ball with spikes. There are a couple spikes broken off, making it appear that it was used as a weapon. I saw one picture someone posted that I will go look for that is similar to it. Thanks for helping me find out more about it.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jamie Stone




Location: Tulsa, OK
Joined: 05 Feb 2012

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is kind of like this single handed flail...


 Attachment: 40.96 KB
flail.jpg

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jamie Stone




Location: Tulsa, OK
Joined: 05 Feb 2012

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also, the person I purchased the home from passed away. When I moved in, the carpet had been removed and the floor boards had been removed. His kids had to lay down a new sub floor. I always had a feeling that they were looking for something and that was why the floor was ripped up in the upstairs of the home. The guy was an electrician and engineer and was a little quirky, with the way he had lights all over the property...my garage and attic had about 50 lights installed. The garage also had a red light that blinked when you turned on certain lights. The home even had solar panels installed.

I have always wondered what treasures he had hidden away on the property. It was a large 5 bedroom home on an acre. Does anyone have any idea of how much the flail in the photo above is worth? One of the members of this forum, I believe, took the photo of it in a small European museum? Also, people mention of only knowing of a few that ever existed, if any at all. How could such an amazing weapon be so rare and unbelievable? Does everyone really have to see, to believe? If so, I will take some photos and see what you guys think of it.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
José-Manuel Benito




Location: Medina del Campo, Spain
Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When I was a kid, I lived in a small town in the inner Spain (a long time ago, at least, forty years). My neighbor was the coppersmith of village. This worker, often had gained some extra money by making imitations of flails to sell as souvenirs. These "flails" had a wooden handle and a single modern chain with a spiked ball. But, I remember well that the spiked ball was made of cast iron, it was too big and, moreover, the cast metal, was very brittle. Those features were essentials to see that it was a poor copy.

I consider it's essential establish how was made the spiked ball (and the shape of the chain), at least, in order to discard crude imitations. Because I think, that one piece on wrought iron would not break easily on normal use, but before the spikes would be bended or blunted.

Finally, it seems to me more correct to speak about knightly flails on the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance (since the 15th century, perhaps the final of 14th century), but not before.

Regards.

Ecce, iam meum patrem video
Ecce, iam meam matrem video
Ecce, iam meas sorores ac meos fratres video
Ecce, iam meam gentem totam ab initio video
Ecce illi me iam vocant
Et illi me rogant meum locum inter se accipere
Apud Averni portas sunt
Ubi viri fortes æterne vivant
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Knightly Flail: A Myth?
Page 2 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum