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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 12:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mick and Jan-

Does the technique you do in sparring look like the technique you practice? I suspect the answer is "no" since you have defended the fact that your techniques doesn't look right as an artifact of sparring.

If you don't look like your drills and techniques when you spar then you must either:
1) Drill more. So that you can spontaneously recreate those actions at speed against an uncooperative opponent.
2) Change the way you drill. If the drills you do perform do not result in good swordsmanship then perhaps you should change how you practice.
3) Question your interpretations. I've seen a handful of fighters (such as Christian Tobler, and Brian Price) who's sparring looks like their techniques. So clearly it can be done. I also think they both have solid interpretations of the original material and have been practicing for 10+ years.

If your interpretations don't work against an uncooperative opponent then you either can't do your interpretations well enough or they are wrong.

At moderate intensity many of the members of our group, Forte Swordplay, can spar like we do technique. Most of us can't do it at max intensity yet. And so we train towards that goal. But our interpretations of technique work at speed against an uncooperative opponent. If we can't make an interpretation work then we question the interpretation. We don't make excuses for why it doesn't work.

If you wish to succeed then you shouldn't either.

-Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas Parsons wrote:

As to the "simultaneous kill" I would not say that the likelihood of such an occurrence is increased with the aforementioned mindset regardless of the levels of each fencer:

1) whatever position your opponent adopts this automatically narrows down your possibilities of action / your opponents' mind will run through this analytical process equally...

2) according to what you know is a viable technique against your opponents stance so shall you move in upon your opponent: if you have correclty selected your action from the available panel then the most likely actions your opponent can perform will be adequately protected by your action as it homes in on him / your opponent goes through this train of thought and action as well

Yes I hear you saying: "But this just proves my point!"
Here's the catch: both fencers will not react at the same time - the fastest fencer (from analytical process to action) will automatically take the "Vor" (initiative) thus forcing the other fencer onto the defensive after the initial crossing of swords; unless of course he slashes the guys head off ...
This is by no means an absolute "rule" but it is what I have seen and experienced more often than not in my fencing and in observing others... apart from the serious slashing of heads Laughing Out Loud ...


A very good, I think ? But a novice may not get the cues and do something truly stupid causing that simultaneous kills.

But overall I agree completely that this is what happens between competent swordsmen.

Also keep in mind that I have only started training around April 2007, so I'm one of those guys who will surprise with something stupid or won't notice a clever faint and react in a predictable way and might get lucky. Wink Laughing Out Loud

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
Joined: 28 Oct 2003

Posts: 237

PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven H wrote:
If you don't look like your drills and techniques when you spar then you must either:
1) Drill more. So that you can spontaneously recreate those actions at speed against an uncooperative opponent.
2) Change the way you drill. If the drills you do perform do not result in good swordsmanship then perhaps you should change how you practice.
3) Question your interpretations. I've seen a handful of fighters (such as Christian Tobler, and Brian Price) whose sparring looks like their techniques. So clearly it can be done. I also think they both have solid interpretations of the original material and have been practicing for 10+ years.

Great points!

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Jan Chodkiewicz
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Location: Danzig - POLAND
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 3:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh,

I accept your (and others) valid criticism long ago. (linear movement, to many slaps without continuation, to short distance etc.) Read my posts please. I wrote to you:

Quote:
Of course, part of your comments were factual, indeed. But if you will practice blossfechten bouting, you will see, that techniqeus in treatise is only part of fencing. I'm not saying, that we don't do "right things" becouse it hard, but rather we do them but not always. If you watch other videos, you will see quite a few clear techniques. Belive me, there are situation when you have to use simple parry, to avoid hit.


I think about, what we can change, and how to make things better. But also I want explain, why we bout like that. I don't want universal applause, and I don't want total critcism.

Quote:
I'm sure you're a "real" German school of the longsword (and I'm very jealous you get to practice in what was once Peter von Danzig's city!!), but if you mean good bouting videos from a German longsword school, I can't because I've not seen any good ones. In my opinion the protective gear and safety rules necessary (and even more so, the safety swords, but your group obviously doesn't have that problem) make it impossible to do realistic Bloßfechten bouting


You wrote, that you never seen good bouting videos from german longsword school. You don't bout, because it's immposible. Then you send me kenjutsu kata, as a proof of real Art. Art of what? making Kata, where everyting it's arranged?(as far as I know, we discuss about bouting, not Kenjutsu show)

I see, that you are 100% sure of your interpretation, and simply ignore what is in treatise. I give you clear quotation, and you give me your subiective opinion. With all respect, I choose treatise.

In my opinion (and it woks in bout) you should try to reach oponent body and head when you are attacking (Vor) When you defend (Nach) yourself, it's possible, to hit simutanisly with Zwer and Schil), during the Displacement. (and it's described in treatise) Other Maisterhau (as it described) first displace (hit to the sword), then try to thrust.

Quote:
To strike closing is what you wish, no change comes into your shield. To the head, to the body, the light blows do not shun. To fight with the entire body, is what you powerfully want to do.

Glosa – Note, This means that when you come to him in the Zufechten, in any fencing you do you’ll want to use the entire strength of the body [and strike close to his head or body and remain with your point before his face or chest. Therefore, he cannot change through before your point. If he displaces with strength and removes then the point from you out toward the side, then give him a tap (Zeck) striking to the arm. Or, if he defends by displacing with his arms high, then strike him with a free strike below to the body and step quickly with it backward. Thus he is struck before he comes in.


It's clear - CLOSE TO THE BODY, (it's obvious, that opponent will defend himself) Strike and REMAIN WITH POINT BEFORE HIS FACE OR CHEST. It suggest, that thrust and work "am schwert" is important, becouse, you have low chance to clean hit oponent without metting his sword. (but here you have also example to fight without bind - last line, similar techniqe you can find in glosa about VELER)

Quote:
The Zornhau does result in a bind, it's true, but you are to cut it as if you were trying to cut your opponent and just let his sword get in the way. That way, if he reacts and tries to do something else he will die from your cut in the fencing time before he can do anything else.


Is that your interpretation, based on study of theory? Maybe I'm wrong, but please show me video, where smb simultaneously displace Oberhau with Zorn and hit the opponent with strengh. Show me where I can find this interpretation in treatises? Becouse in my opinion, it's imposible, and german master's didn't advice this. Show me video, when smb do it in bout, with speed, strengh, and real oponent, not Uke. It can be Kenjutsu, but real bout please.

"Omnis enim artifex intendit producere opus pulcrum et utile et stabile."
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 8:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jan Chodkiewicz wrote:
You wrote, that you never seen good bouting videos from german longsword school. You don't bout, because it's immposible. Then you send me kenjutsu kata, as a proof of real Art. Art of what? making Kata, where everyting it's arranged?(as far as I know, we discuss about bouting, not Kenjutsu show)


It's sad to see a supposed martial artist with that little understanding of kata.

And read my posts again: I am a *strong* believer in bouting. But I'll bet, based on other thing you wrote, that you didn't read what I wrote carefully to understand that.

Quote:
Is that your interpretation, based on study of theory? Maybe I'm wrong, but please show me video, where smb simultaneously displace Oberhau with Zorn and hit the opponent with strengh. Show me where I can find this interpretation in treatises? Becouse in my opinion, it's imposible, and german master's didn't advice this. Show me video, when smb do it in bout, with speed, strengh, and real oponent, not Uke. It can be Kenjutsu, but real bout please.


You're certainly wrong in not reading what I wrote. I don't believe the Zornhau impacts your opponent at all (unless, as I said, he moves his sword). I never said anything about cutting into your opponent through the bind, and I don't believe in it. You simply don't understand the concept of cutting while ignoring your opponent's sword, which seems fairly indicative of your level of understanding in general. You cut into the bind as if your opponent's sword wasn't there. That way, you don't end up in the empty actions you were doing.

I'm finished here. No good deed goes unpunished, as they say, and I'm sorry I pointed out your serious mistakes. Thank you, however, for helping prove my point.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 8:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh,
Please stop the snide/condescending remarks. They come across as personal attacks, which as you know, we don't like here. There are better ways to get your points across.

It will be a happy day for me and many others when martial arts topics can be discussed without resorting to condescension.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2008 7:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jan Chodkiewicz wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong, but please show me video, where smb simultaneously displace Oberhau with Zorn and hit the opponent with strengh. Show me where I can find this interpretation in treatises? Becouse in my opinion, it's imposible, and german master's didn't advice this.


Jan

I was the once that stated you should attempt to hit the adversary with a Zorn counter cut. At the end of the video below there is a clear demonstration by John Clements showing how to hit an adversary with a counter Zornhau. I don't have a sparring video at hand but we do this all the time in sparring. This interpretation matches all of the German manuals that describe the Oberhau-Zorn counter cut and it is very martially sound.

http://www.thearma.org/photos/Gathering03/G03Vids/JCdemclips.mov

I agree with everyone that your fighting should look like your drilling. However, in ARMA we view sparring as the test of interpretation - if it is not maritally sound then the interpretation is probably wrong. Therefore, if in sparring you look just like your drilling but you are still being handed you butt on a platter then you must go back and re-work your interpretation and your drills of that interpretation.

By the way, I like the videos. Yes, there are problems, but we all have them. That is the pains of recreating these arts, no one really knows these arts. Looking forward to seeing more.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Derek Wassom




Location: Fribourg, Switzerland
Joined: 25 Feb 2004

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2008 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi, Ran. I believe you meant to post the sixth video down on this page. http://thearma.org/Videos/TPVideos.htm
Regards,
Derek Wassom
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2008 8:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Derek Wassom wrote:
Hi, Ran. I believe you meant to post the sixth video down on this page. http://thearma.org/Videos/TPVideos.htm


Hi Derek

Thanks, but actually I did post the right one, which included a discussion on how the technique works. Thanks for posting the link to the other video, very very good examples in it.

Looking forward to training with you again.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Michael Edelson




Location: New York
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2008 8:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
I agree with everyone that your fighting should look like your drilling. However, in ARMA we view sparring as the test of interpretation - if it is not maritally sound then the interpretation is probably wrong. Therefore, if in sparring you look just like your drilling but you are still being handed you butt on a platter then you must go back and re-work your interpretation and your drills of that interpretation.


What if you're being handed your butt because of artifacts?

For example, most people fight with little regard to their own safety (because their safety is not threatened by free play). This is not realistic and this is not the situation one would have faced in the 14th or 15th century unless one challenged the village idiot to a duel.

Equipment also introductes artifacts. Simulated swords don't behave like steel swords, and blunts require so much protective gear that the gear will change how you move and how your body reacts to strikes. For example, if you are wearing a steel gauntlet and I strike your hand with a waster, shinai or padded sword as you cut oberhau, my strike will stop your cut and I will hand you your butt. But with real swords and no steel gauntlets, that cut would not be stopped, and I would be dead, and you merely injured.

If you change your interpretations based on free play, are you not runing a serious risk of creating a hybrid art who's emphasis is on competive simulator fighting and not the genuine article?

New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com

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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2008 10:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
What if you're being handed your butt because of artifacts?

For example, most people fight with little regard to their own safety (because their safety is not threatened by free play). This is not realistic and this is not the situation one would have faced in the 14th or 15th century unless one challenged the village idiot to a duel.


Hi Michael

Good to talk with you again.

I agree with you that "artifacts" can change sparring into nothing more than just fun play with little or no martial value. In ARMA we deal with this by forcefully insisting that people fight with a realistic mind set. Although refussing to attempt to fight in realistic manner is a quick way to get booted from the organization such people usually weed themselves out long before we have to contact the director about their behavior (we have indeed encountered some village idiots Razz ). But think about it, one's skill should work better against somone with no regard for their safety than for someone who does value their safety. Wink When we spar with people from outside of ARMA we do insist that they spar within our rules rather than their rules. For instance, when SCA members have sparred with us they were required to take off all of the armour, use our swords, and accept hits below the knee and on the hands.


Michael Edelson wrote:
Equipment also introductes artifacts. Simulated swords don't behave like steel swords, and blunts require so much protective gear that the gear will change how you move and how your body reacts to strikes. For example, if you are wearing a steel gauntlet and I strike your hand with a waster, shinai or padded sword as you cut oberhau, my strike will stop your cut and I will hand you your butt. But with real swords and no steel gauntlets, that cut would not be stopped, and I would be dead, and you merely injured.

If you change your interpretations based on free play, are you not runing a serious risk of creating a hybrid art who's emphasis is on competive simulator fighting and not the genuine article?


In order to deal with the problems presented by different equipment we spar with different equipment. We spar with wasters, padded swords, and blunts. We actually don't use a lot of protection with steel blunts (not an act of machoism). With good control we are able to spar hard wearing only a mask, a cup, and some type of padded gloves, while receiving little more than a few black & blue spots. We are actually encouraged not to wear tons fo protective gear because it would keeps us from feeling blows, which in turn would result in people hitting much harder in order to make people feel blows, which ups the chance of a serious injury.

When rules and equipment are controlled in sparring but one is still handed their butt they are left with only one quesition, "What did they do wrong?" Confused If you performed a technique correctly according to a interpretation then you have to question the interpretation of that technique. If we don't then how are we ever going to move forward in the recreation of these lost arts?

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Michael Edelson




Location: New York
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2008 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
But think about it, one's skill should work better against somone with no regard for their safety than for someone who does value their safety. Wink


Hi Randall,

I don't disagree with much of what you said, the above being a major exception. Happy

How do you kill someone willing to give their life to take you down? For example, you attack me with an oberhau, thinking that if I am not a complete moron, I must defend myself against that oberhau or at least get of out if its way. Well what if I don't...what if I completely ignore that oberhau and instead strike a low opening (to avoid contacting your sword)? We both die.

Or what you if stand in a thrusting guard and I rush in, wide open, encouraging your thrust, so that after I am impaled on your sword I can strike your head without opposition?

I think that people who bout without any regard for their own safety (and yet somehow most of these people are afraid to get hit?!?!?) represent the greatest degree of difficulty for realistic and effective free play.

New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com

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Mick Czerep




Location: Poland
Joined: 30 May 2007

Posts: 59

PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael, Randall

Yes, we did encounter the overprotection problem in our playing, which is why we decided to downgrade the gambesons to arming doublets. We do however need the plastrons if we are to thrust forcefully at each other.

The argument 'but I could have killed you' can then be answered with 'then why didn't you try do do it?' For a given understanding of 'kill', of course.

Correctly constructed arming doublets ensure a bit of protection, so that there are no injuries, yet a hit does hurt and it does leave quite colorful bruises.

The real point of protective gear, from our standpoint is that as you play you are not afraid to give your partner a really hearty whack. This changes your attitude to attacking and application of force in a strike or thrust.

Please note, that we just moved our speed, aggression and power to a new level and it takes some getting used to. I'm certain that in a month or two at the outside we will be abe to demonstrate something that is both realistic (AFA it is possible) and liechtenauerian in both its spirit and appearance.
Cheers
Mick

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Jan Chodkiewicz
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Location: Danzig - POLAND
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2008 3:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I was the once that stated you should attempt to hit the adversary with a Zorn counter cut. At the end of the video below there is a clear demonstration by John Clements showing how to hit an adversary with a counter Zornhau. I don't have a sparring video at hand but we do this all the time in sparring. This interpretation matches all of the German manuals that describe the Oberhau-Zorn counter cut and it is very martially sound


Randal,

Thank you for your link - it's really good demonstration of ARMA Zornhau interpretation. Now I know, that it's possible to defend by couter cut Zornhau, when opponent stike with strengh (CoP hit) and intent, without changing strike trajectory. Please send me your (or others) sparring videos with that acction.

Quote:
By the way, I like the videos. Yes, there are problems, but we all have them. That is the pains of recreating these arts, no one really knows these arts. Looking forward to seeing more.


Uff, It's mirracle, everybody who spparing a little, have a different aproach to judge others bouts.

Best Regards

Jan

"Omnis enim artifex intendit producere opus pulcrum et utile et stabile."
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