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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Residing at the Museum of Scotland, Edinburgh.
Mac
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'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Richard Fay
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Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hello again!
Thomas,
Thanks for the link and photo (I've always wondered about that sword with four quillons, too)!
What Blair wrote in that article was interesting; it contradicted what he had said in his other works. I like the conclusion he reached, stating that the term could be used for both the two-handed sword and the basket-hilted broadsword. I believe that in a modern application (describing an existing period example in a museum or private collection, or naming a modern replica) that claymore can be acceptably applied to either type sword. Of course, Blair's article brought up the point that the Gaelic term meaning "great sword", claidheamh mor, might not have been applied to the two-handed sword during the period of its use!
Thanks again! (Oh, by the way, do you prefer to be addressed as Thomas, or Mac?)
Stay safe!
CLAYMORE!!! (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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GG Osborne
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Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Without seeing the original, I have to tell you guys that is one of the most awkward looking swords (great or otherise ) that I have ever seen. Even allowing for the bend in the grip...Wow...those quillons aren't even attractive, much less (seemingly) useful. I'm sure some advocate of the Great Sword will disagree, but for my money, the reason this puppy survived is because it hung on the wall rather than at someones "side." I guess I just like the cruciform simplicity of the classic! George
"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
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Larry Davis
Location: canada Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 17
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Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject: Curvature of targes |
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Its because of the way the targes are constructed that causes the body to warp.
Wood wants to move.
The boards are laid with the long grain running lengthwise to each other.
Wood expands across the grain so the top layer of boards want to push outwards (lets say the targe is a clock face and the grain of the face boards runs from the 12 to 6 o'clock positions) so the expansion will be to the 9 and 3 positions.
And because the back layer is binding them and it to wants to expand in the opposite direction the 9 and 3 edges of the face layer will push downwards, while the rear layers 9 and 3 positions will curve upwards.
And yes most of the period targes have this warpage, some more than others.
Also you will find that the targe makers would take advantage of this and put the strapping on so that the inside of the warp lies on the curve forearm and the rises are at the elbow and at the knuckles.
Its really comfortable!
If you construct one in the original fashion, you will find that the targe body starts to warp within the day!
Its best to let it stand and finish warping for a week before laying out for straps and leather.
The tacks are made by doming a brass blank and lead soldering a shank in place.
Cheers,
Larry.
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Jean Thibodeau
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Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Sort of looks like an inflatable balloon claymore with not enough air in it to keep it ............. well you know.
Needs a little more testosterone maybe.
I can see the tang bending this way if damaged instead of breaking but the wood taking a curve like this rather than splitting that seems odd ? I'm assuming wood grip. ( Horn or ivory ??? )
With 4 guards at best it seem line a processional piece and not meant for actual use.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Drummond's book states that the grip is carved ivory .... {kinda looks like Oosic (Walrus bone) to me ?}
Mac or Thomas is fine, Richard !
Hi Larry
Thanks for the information .... I'd hoped you be along to enlighten us !
Mac
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'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Merv Cannon
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Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Curvature of targes |
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Larry Davis wrote: |
If you construct one in the original fashion, you will find that the targe body starts to warp within the day!
Its best to let it stand and finish warping for a week before laying out for straps and leather.
Larry. |
Thanks Larry,
So your saying that the targe-makers knew and indeed used the warpage to natural advantage ? So, in regards to "original fashon" of construction .......they did as per your posted photo...ie, dowel pegs ( hardwood ?) and hide-glued ?
And I guess, sun-dried to aid the warpage also ? ( Is there a book on this ?) We've already established that mostly pine boards were used earlier in the post. Is there any other original construction tips that I should know about...( Yes, obviously I am gonna make one )...... as I am in my 50's and am having to start up a business all over again ( and find a viable local market ) my interrests are firstly historical for myself and secondly practical.
Mabye it was a mistake to throw that 4-hilt sword illustration in here ? I didnt mean to start a whole debate on the long history of the use of the word "Claymore", ......what I mean to say was ........"big sharp long pointy thing !! "
Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/
"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Merv Cannon
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Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 6:43 pm Post subject: targaid |
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Wow Thomas.....You added all those great shots while I was writing the above post......is there anything you dont have pictures of ! ? ?
Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/
"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Merv Cannon
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Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: Targaid |
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Hi Again......... I just fornd the book "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications" 1100 - 1800 by David Caldwell. @ Amazon but its listed twice. The first listing is "used from $50 for hardcover, 1980." The second listing is for " new and used hardcover, 1981- from $189.24 " !!
Can someone guide me as to whats happening between 1980 and 1981 ? Second year printing must be a whole lot thicker !?
Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/
"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Targaid |
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Merv Cannon wrote: | Hi Again......... I just fornd the book "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications" 1100 - 1800 by David Caldwell. @ Amazon but its listed twice. The first listing is "used from $50 for hardcover, 1980." The second listing is for " new and used hardcover, 1981- from $189.24 " !!
Can someone guide me as to whats happening between 1980 and 1981 ? Second year printing must be a whole lot thicker !? |
Buy it now for $50. Do it.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Merv Cannon
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Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: Targaid |
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Got it ! ............Thanks Nathan !!
Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/
"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Richard Fay
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Posted: Thu 16 Nov, 2006 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Hello all!
Mac,
Thanks again for the wonderful pictures of that oddball sword!
I wondered if the grip could be from a narwhal tusk (you know, "unicorn horn"), but they might be straighter than that. Does anyone know if narwhal tusks would have such a curve? Of course, maybe it's another material carved to look like that.
I also wondered, could the tang be bent to take the shape of the grip material? Maybe the buyer specifically wanted a certain grip material, and the only piece to be had was bent. I find it hard to believe that a bend like that would occur after construction without the grip cracking or breaking!
Thanks again, Mac! I know this is getting off topic from targes, but it's still interesting just the same!
Oh, I just found a drawing of the Hawthornden sword, said to have been wielded by Robert the Bruce, in The Battle of Bannockburn 1314 by Aryeh Nusbacher. I believe it's the same sword (spiral grip, four-armed cross). The book also has a drawing of the same axe head that's displayed with the sword. The caption states that the handle is made from narwhal tusk. (I read this after I typed in the first part, really I did!)
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Geoff Wood
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Posted: Thu 16 Nov, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Richard Fay wrote: | Hello all!
Mac,
Thanks again for the wonderful pictures of that oddball sword!
I wondered if the grip could be from a narwhal tusk (you know, "unicorn horn"), but they might be straighter than that. Does anyone know if narwhal tusks would have such a curve? Of course, maybe it's another material carved to look like that.
I also wondered, could the tang be bent to take the shape of the grip material? Maybe the buyer specifically wanted a certain grip material, and the only piece to be had was bent. I find it hard to believe that a bend like that would occur after construction without the grip cracking or breaking!
Thanks again, Mac! I know this is getting off topic from targes, but it's still interesting just the same!
Oh, I just found a drawing of the Hawthornden sword, said to have been wielded by Robert the Bruce, in The Battle of Bannockburn 1314 by Aryeh Nusbacher. I believe it's the same sword (spiral grip, four-armed cross). The book also has a drawing of the same axe head that's displayed with the sword. The caption states that the handle is made from narwhal tusk. (I read this after I typed in the first part, really I did!)
Stay safe! |
Hi Richard
Maybe they thought it was Narwhal because of the spiral, but that could have been carved. There are suggestions that the spiral is in the tusk to even out growth irregularities and to specifically prevent overall curvature.
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF8/895.html
Me, I don't know, but i've only ever seen straight tusk in pictures (some very rare ones have two tusks - but still straight).
regards
Geoff
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh
Location: Agder, Norway Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 386
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Posted: Thu 16 Nov, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Larry,
Thanks for sharing that information (and the picture)! Very interesting! Making a targe seems far more complicated now than before! :-D hehe I hope I get the time to make one myself next year. :-)
Mac,
I recently recieved Drummonds book and the drawing there of that particular sword really pusseled me. Thanks for sharing those pictures.
Personally I'd guess that the original grip decayed and that a replacement was made during the 1800s after the tang had been bent...
Cheers,
Henrik
Constant and true.
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Walter Stockwell
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Posted: Fri 17 Nov, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Johan S. Moen wrote: | Lin Robinson wrote: | He also mentions the spike and says it "wounds the Enemy when they are close". Fletcher was a Lowlander and may not have understood the use of the targe in combat.
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The word "close" might be the key here. I agree that the spike on the targe will not be of much use when on sword-length distance from your opponent, but if you start doing close play, grappling, etc, I can not see why it would be hard to use the spike against an opponent. A largish buckler can be used for armlocks without trouble, and though the targe is held in a more confined manner, it should be possible to use both the edge and the spike for punching.
Johan Schubert Moen |
To follow on this... why hold a dirk in the targe hand if one is unable to use it (either because the targe is too heavy, or no reach.) If you can hurt someone with a dirk in your hand, you can probably hurt them with a spike on your targe.
Walter
www.stockwellknives.com
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Joe Lindsay
Industry Professional
Location: Scotland Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 8
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Posted: Tue 21 Nov, 2006 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Walter Stockwell wrote: | Johan S. Moen wrote: | Lin Robinson wrote: | He also mentions the spike and says it "wounds the Enemy when they are close". Fletcher was a Lowlander and may not have understood the use of the targe in combat.
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The word "close" might be the key here. I agree that the spike on the targe will not be of much use when on sword-length distance from your opponent, but if you start doing close play, grappling, etc, I can not see why it would be hard to use the spike against an opponent. A largish buckler can be used for armlocks without trouble, and though the targe is held in a more confined manner, it should be possible to use both the edge and the spike for punching.
Johan Schubert Moen |
To follow on this... why hold a dirk in the targe hand if one is unable to use it (either because the targe is too heavy, or no reach.) If you can hurt someone with a dirk in your hand, you can probably hurt them with a spike on your targe. |
I've thought about this a lot, and now think that the simple reason for holding the dirk in the targe hand is in case you lose, or break your sword. The dirk is immediately available.
If I was fighting for my life, that's what I would do.
Certainly, with my targes, it is easy to hold both in one hand ( but definitely not by putting your hand right through the handle !! - it would get chopped off !! - David Morier has a lot to answer for )
Joe Lindsay (forum virgin )
Nothing is ever what it seems - old john
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Posted: Tue 21 Nov, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding of the dirk and targe together, I highly recommend reading "The dirk and targe: their use together" by Colin R. Rolland. it was published in The Third Park Lane Arms Fair Catalog.
Attached is one depiction of how they may have been held together.
It is asked why a person might hold and use the dirk in this fashion. It is suggested that the commonly held belief that the dirk was used offensively is quite erroneous as it is unlikely that any advantage could be made by using the slow and clumsy offensive back-handed slashes that this position would allow. After all, the hand is weighed down by the heft of the targe and the hand's movement is greatly effected by its being strapped into the shield.
Instead two suggestions are presented: the first is that it would provide easy access to the dirk should the wielder's sword become unavailable for any reason. If this were to happen, the dirk would be immediately available without delay. The second suggestion is that, by holding it point downward, a defensive opportunity has presented itself.
Because of the position and size of the targe, the upper body is quite well protected by it, but the lower torso and legs are quite exposed to a cut. The article goes on to suggest that such attacks can be parried by a lateral and downward movement of the targe so as to lock the opponent's weapon between the dirk blade and the targe's edge, "thus unbalancing the adversary and exposing him to a swift courterattack."
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh
Location: Agder, Norway Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 386
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Posted: Tue 21 Nov, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Nathan,
I've thought of the defencive option myself, and I think it seems very logical and practical. But I don't think that offensive use of the dirk when held behind the targe should be completely ruled out either.
Whenever I read discussions about the useage of the dirk held behind the targe the participants allmost allways seem to believe that there is only one true method (for instance; they either think the hand left hand holds both the targe-handle and the dirk at the same time or they think the arm is slipped through the handle). Personally I think the warriors who used these weapons would be aware of different ways of using it, and would apply the method they themselves found most effective, both for defence and offence.
Cheers,
Henrik
Constant and true.
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GG Osborne
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Posted: Tue 21 Nov, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Let's go back to the spike issue again: Does anyone have a feel for how long these spikes were? or what percentage of targes actually had a spike? Is this just another disservice to historical Scotdom by David Morier? Were they round, or square? Screwed in or fixed in place? If one were to make a reproduction for a targe, what would it look like? Inquiring minds want to know! George
"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
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Merv Cannon
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Posted: Wed 22 Nov, 2006 12:46 am Post subject: Targaidean |
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GG Osborne wrote: | Let's go back to the spike issue again: Does anyone have a feel for how long these spikes were? or what percentage of targes actually had a spike? Is this just another disservice to historical Scotdom by David Morier? Were they round, or square? Screwed in or fixed in place? If one were to make a reproduction for a targe, what would it look like? Inquiring minds want to know! George |
Good point, George............I'd like to know also. ( David who ?) ...... Round or square ? Im an amature guesser here, but Im willing to bet the quick answer is '"Żes!" round or square....and prob. triangular also ! I do know that not all definately had them and that one of the guys at the Cateran Society worked with the top Targaideer in Scottland. He was always sent on field trips to draw originals (no modern photos allowed ) and he handled several measuring one spike at 9 inches. But I have certinally seen huge variance in length in period drawings, if this be artistic licence or not I dont know. Some are drawn very long.
I was thinking though, if I was on the recieving end of a Highland Charge the spike plus the sword would give me two 'points' of concern, esp with the weight of a running higlander behind it !
Actually, to be honest, I've never seen one single close-up photo on the web of a Targaid spike ?
Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/
"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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