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Martin Wallgren
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 Posted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 7:58 am Post subject: Meisterhau |
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Intresting subject but I think it deserves it´s own topic...
| Quote: | | Yep, those are the same five I'm talking about for the most part, except that the redel isn't actually a master strike, and there's also the krumphau. But, yes, we're on the same page. When I say "not intuitive", I mean that most people would not instinctively think to use the zwerchau to both defend against a head cut whilst simultaneously striking the opponent in the head with the short edge, or binding a blade down with the krumphau with a follow up cut to the head using the short edge. Perhaps I'm not being fair to everyone, but I know I never would have thought of it until I started studying Liechtanauer. But who knows, I've been pretty dense about a lot of things. Happy The zornhau, on the other hand, is very intuitive, and I think that's exactly why it's the first of the master strikes, as so many of the other concepts (fuhlen, winden, etc.) can easily be taught out of it. |
I´m of the same opinion. If you look at sparring the "Drei hau" Over, Middel und Under strikes are the ones used the most. The Meisterhau are much harder to exercise due to distnace and timing.
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Yep. To once again bring up Dobringer (I've been working with that text a lot lately):
| Quote: | | And also know that from two strikes alone come all other strikes that it is possible to name: that is the oberhaw (overcut) and the unterhaw (undercut) from both sides. These are the main strikes and form the foundation for all other strikes. They are in themselves basic and come from the point of the sword, which is the centre and core of all other pieces that is well described to you. And from these strikes come the four displacements from each side with which all strikes or thrusts are broken and also all guards, and from them you come into the four hangings and from these one can do fine art as you will hear later. |
Dobringer does not specifically bring up the middle cut, as medieval masters seemed to have lumped that into the over and under cuts, but otherwise it's the same sentiment.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Whoops, Christian posted before I finished. :)
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Martin Wallgren
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| Posted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Hi Martin,
The Drei Hauwe are not the three types of blows you cited; rather, this term is used in mss. 3227a (aka, Dobringer) for a technique where you deliver an Unterhau from one side, then the other, followed by an Oberhau down to the head.
The Mittelhau does not seem to be considered an equal of the Ober- and Unterhaue, for that same mss. says that all strokes of the sword come from the strokes above and below.
Cheers,
Christian |
Yep, Sorry! I ment the Over under and middle strikes... Not the Drei Hauwe... My Bad!
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Micha Hofmann
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| Posted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Meisterhau |
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| Quote: |
If you look at sparring the "Drei hau" Over, Middel und Under strikes are the ones used the most. The Meisterhau are much harder to exercise due to distnace and timing. |
Thanks for bringing up the subject.
It really deserves a thread. :)
But I think sparring usage of the "Meisterhaue" depends on how the sparrers were taught.
In the group I'm fencing with at present ( the Kriegsraben in Cologne ), the Zwerch is among the first techniques taught and thus widely used in sparring ( not as an opening move, but rather as a counter against strikes from above or as a follow-up after first blade to blade contact). It takes a little while to get used to, but after a couple of months, every beginner uses it a lot.
And furthermore:
Could somebody please explain to me, what a "Redel" is and where the word is mentioned? ( Doebringer? )
So far i have not come across the word when reading german "Fechtbücher", but I have neither read nor remembered everything...
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Meisterhau |
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| Micha Hofmann wrote: |
But I think sparring usage of the "Meisterhaue" depends on how the sparrers were taught.
In the group I'm fencing with at present ( the Kriegsraben in Cologne ), the Zwerch is among the first techniques taught and thus widely used in sparring ( not as an opening move, but rather as a counter against strikes from above or as a follow-up after first blade to blade contact). It takes a little while to get used to, but after a couple of months, every beginner uses it a lot. |
I do agree to a large extent. When I teach beginners, after basic footwork and simple cuts, I teach them to defend against an attack to the torso via the zornhau, an attack to the head with a zwerchau and an attack to the leg with the scheitelhau. I don't say anything about them being master strikes or even what master strikes are, I just use them as simple examples of how to counter those three attacks, and to teach them things such as using the strong of the blade against the weak, footwork, edge alignment, avoidance, etc. So perhaps many of my students will use those three particular strikes a fair amount at the beginning. But after that I break away from the master strikes, and then later come back to all five again.
| Quote: | | Could somebody please explain to me, what a "Redel" is and where the word is mentioned? |
It means the wheel, and is found in the nebenhut section of Ringeck (Christian's translation):
| Quote: | | When you close with him, then stretch the arms and hold the thumb above on the sword and move the point like a wheel before you from below to your left side. And go in such a way toward him. From this you can change through or bind on either side, and if you bind up, you can do whatever techniques seem best to you, as before. |
Basically, with the tip held back and low in nebenhut, you make a fast horizontal cut with your dominant hand facing palm up, cutting in a "wheel" shape.
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Micha Hofmann
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| Posted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Thanks a lot Bill. With you help i've found the verse in Ringecks Fechtbuch.
I'll think about if for the rest of the week and then ask my fellow-fencers about the Redel on Saturday ...
:)
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Micha Hofmann
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| Posted: Sat 16 Apr, 2005 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Christian.
Your description of a circular "Durchwechseln" fits with what i've been shown in training today and with Ringeck's original description ( as far as I can read and understand old german).
I just couldn't make Bill's description fit with Ringeck's text and was just going to ask about it, only to find the answer here waiting for me.
And the Redel is fun to play with, too.
I just love this site... :cool:
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