| Author |
Message |
|
Joel Whitmore
Location: Simmesport, LA Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 342
|
 Posted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 6:21 am Post subject: Fencing Manuels for 2-handers |
 |
|
I have several of the texts that have been recently translated for sword combat (Ringneck, Tolhoffter, along with Christian Tobler's book). I was wondering if there are any surviving historical texts dealing exclusively, or nearly so, with the use of the 2-hander either in dueling or in actual combat. I realize that many of the issues may be the same (timing, distance, footwork etc) but it would be intersting to see what differences there are from the hand-and-a-half sword. There has been some discussion/debate about how this specialized weapon was used on the the battlefield and I am really curious to see if any of the historical masters left instruction on how this type of sword was to be used. Just curious here.
Joel
|
|
    |
 |
|
Gary Grzybek
Location: Stillwater N.J. Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 559
|
| Posted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 6:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Joel,
There's not much out there regarding true two handers and their use. We know that there were specified tactical uses on the battlefield including half swording and treating the weapon much like a spear but not much solid evidence remains. As you said, many of the longsword techniques within the various manuals would certainly apply.
Here's an interesting manual on the use of the Great sword.
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/Goliath.htm
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
Last edited by Gary Grzybek on Wed 19 Jan, 2005 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
 |
|
|
Anton de Vries
|
| Posted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 8:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
File Not Found :cry:
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gary Grzybek
Location: Stillwater N.J. Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 559
|
| Posted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 1:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Anton de Vries wrote: |
File Not Found :cry: |
Strange, I'll check and see why.
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gary Grzybek
Location: Stillwater N.J. Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 559
|
| Posted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 1:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Anton de Vries wrote: |
File Not Found :cry: |
Okay, the link is working now :D
Thanks!
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
|
|
|
|
|
|
R. Laine
|
| Posted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 1:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There are a couple of texts, mostly Italian, that deal with larger swords, actually. Vadi and Marozzo, at least, and I'm sure there are a couple of others, but the Italian stuff isn't really my main area of interest. At least Vadi can be bought via Chivalry Bookshelf. Don't know about Marozzo...
Besides, many hold the view that the longsword of the Liechtenauer tradition was a larger longsword as well. The system definitely does work with one.
Rabbe
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gary Grzybek
Location: Stillwater N.J. Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 559
|
| Posted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 1:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Rabbe Jan-Olof Laine wrote: | There are a couple of texts, mostly Italian, that deal with larger swords, actually. Vadi and Marozzo, at least, and I'm sure there are a couple of others, but the Italian stuff isn't really my main area of interest. At least Vadi can be bought via Chivalry Bookshelf. Don't know about Marozzo...
Besides, many hold the view that the longsword of the Liechtenauer tradition was a larger longsword as well. The system definitely does work with one.
Rabbe |
What I've seen of Marozzo's two handed work appears to be very brief. Is there a source that gives more detail of this manual?
Vadi's work seems to be more focused on the bastard sword but I imagine much of it could apply to the true two hander as well.
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
|
|
|
|
|
|
R. Laine
|
| Posted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | What I've seen of Marozzo's two handed work appears to be very brief. Is there a source that gives more detail of this manual? |
I don't think so. Monte remains untranslated (and, now that I think of it, may actually discuss the hand-and-a-halfer for all I know), and Alfieri is even shorter than Marozzo.
| Quote: | | Vadi's work seems to be more focused on the bastard sword but I imagine much of it could apply to the true two hander as well. |
Vadi says that a longsword should reach from the ground to the user's armpit and have a hilt as long as the forearm. That's hardly a bastard sword... unless one has really short legs and forearms, anyway. *g* It's no big huge zweihänder, though, but still a two-hander.
Gawd, that sounded silly...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anton de Vries
|
| Posted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 10:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gary Grzybek wrote: |
Okay, the link is working now :D
Thanks! |
That would be great. That is, if it actually worked. Which it doesn't. Hehehe. :D
|
|
|
|
|
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 11:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
di Grassi also has a section on the two handed sword, albeit brief. This manual isn't my forte, but he builds upon the use of the single sword (called a rapier in the English translation, though this is not quite the long thrusting blade predominant of the 17th century) to teach the two handed one, as well as to teach staff weapons.
|
|
|
|
|
Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
|
| Posted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Anton de Vries wrote: | | Gary Grzybek wrote: |
Okay, the link is working now :D
Thanks! |
That would be great. That is, if it actually worked. Which it doesn't. Hehehe. :D |
This is rather peculiar. The link in Gary's original post works, but the one in the quote of his post does not!!! Maybe the quote is not exact :?:
Alexi
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anton de Vries
|
| Posted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 1:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Oh it works now. Thx Gary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gary Grzybek
Location: Stillwater N.J. Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 559
|
| Posted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Rabbe Jan-Olof Laine wrote: | | Quote: | | What I've seen of Marozzo's two handed work appears to be very brief. Is there a source that gives more detail of this manual? |
I don't think so. Monte remains untranslated (and, now that I think of it, may actually discuss the hand-and-a-halfer for all I know), and Alfieri is even shorter than Marozzo.
| Quote: | | Vadi's work seems to be more focused on the bastard sword but I imagine much of it could apply to the true two hander as well. |
Vadi says that a longsword should reach from the ground to the user's armpit and have a hilt as long as the forearm. That's hardly a bastard sword... unless one has really short legs and forearms, anyway. *g* It's no big huge zweihänder, though, but still a two-hander.
Gawd, that sounded silly... |
Ah! ...shows how much I know about Vadi :D The Italian manuals are something I need to get more into.
Thanks!
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
|
|
|
|
|
Folkert van Wijk
|
| Posted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 3:25 am Post subject: pictured guidens |
|
|
Sinds I started my twohander course I do need some pictured guidens
So is there also a website that has the simple basic positions pictured?
In a way that I can print them end use them as a practical studie and practices guide...
So I don't need to buy a book for that. (evil grin) :D :p
A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…
I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anton de Vries
|
| Posted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 3:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Since I happen to know your instructor, I believe you're actually referring to the hand-and-a-half sword, also known as the Grete Swerde or War Sword or just longsword. Whatever. I probably missed a few.
Twohanders are the really BIG swords, as far as I can see useless in a duel, and very popular with people with certain psychological difficulties. ;)
Anyway I sent you a PM about those pics.
|
|
|
|
|
Kenneth Enroth
|
| Posted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 4:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
The goliath manual seems to only depict unarmoured duels with the twohanders so they can't be useless. They seem to require quite a bit physical ability though.
|
|
|
|
|
Folkert van Wijk
|
| Posted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 4:37 am Post subject: Ok then |
|
|
Ok then I am a newby here :D
And I (like Anton said) am a bit confused by these terms and there actual looks and sices....
I handeld them with to hands dow.. :\
So what I actualy was looking for, is one and a half hand manual pictures on teh internet.
Learning all the time.....
A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…
I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
R. Laine
|
| Posted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 5:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Twohanders are the really BIG swords, as far as I can see useless in a duel... |
Definitely not. Scarily quick, scarily far-reaching, scarily strong and still quite effective in close quarters.
| Quote: | | They seem to require quite a bit physical ability though. |
Contrary to common myths, wielding a zweihänder doesn't take incredible amounts of strength (although, as with any kind of fencing, being strong does help somewhat). The long handle grants quite a bit of leverage to move the thing around, and that, coupled with proper body mechanics, makes it quite easy to use one.
Rabbe
|
|
|
|
|
|
R. Laine
|
| Posted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 5:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gary Grzybek wrote: |
Ah! ...shows how much I know about Vadi :D The Italian manuals are something I need to get more into.
Thanks! |
Yeah, me too. It's a shame so few are translated, although it seems that is going to be remedied during the few next years, with Bob Charron's Fiore books and the Fabris translation, among others, coming up.
Rabbe
|
|
|
|
|
Kenneth Enroth
|
| Posted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 5:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Contrary to common myths, wielding a zweihänder doesn't take incredible amounts of strength (although, as with any kind of fencing, being strong does help somewhat). The long handle grants quite a bit of leverage to move the thing around, and that, coupled with proper body mechanics, makes it quite easy to use one.
Rabbe |
Yes but I feel they are trickier to use than a shorter and lighter sword. It feels like they require better balance and body awareness than the smaller swords.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is a standard topic