Help With N. European Sword (Swedish?) -- myArmoury.com

Anders Lindkvist · Posted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 1:02 am Post subject:

There is also a interesting sword in the museum of Gränna, Sweden, that was found in the lake of Vättern. It has a small pommel and a unusual long grip with a very small guard. Its dated to around 1500. I have pics of the sword but not were I am right now. I do belive that Peter Johnsson have som pictures, otherwise I will post some pics later on.

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

Sorry, I can´t post my images of the Vättern sword. It is very similar to one of those from Göteborg: the one with partly preserved grip.
The Vättern sword had also a partly preserved scabbard with leather. Also an intact rainguard/ guard chappe/ guard leather (whatever you want to call it!) of tubular type.
A good fighting sword is my personal impression. It s not the most symmetrical of swords. The grip is of to one side by as much as half a cm. I have seen this on other swords of this type and read (Hoffmeier?) that the blades of type XXII that are common on those pretzel guard swords seem to be second rate blades from Passau. I am not sure how symmetrical these XXII were tin general. I have seen blades of this type on high quality swords of continental Europe origin that also were askew in one way or the other.

But, it is a not uncommon feature that these swords are a bit lopsided in one or several ways. I get the impression that they were made in bulk, and perhaps rather speedily.

Eric Hejdström · Posted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 10:07 am Post subject:

I have seen a picture of that sword but I can't for the life of me remember where...

Olov Tidemalm · Posted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 11:34 am Post subject:

Is this the one?

[ Linked Image ]

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

That´s the one Happy

Note the very basic chape at the end of the scabbard. It is basically a H-shaped piece of 1 mm iron that is bent around the tip and pinched in place.

Craig Peters · Posted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 10:33 pm Post subject:

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

Not an unreasonable thing Wink

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 25 Jan, 2010 8:50 am Post subject:

The Vättern sword is an(other) incredible piece! Is that grip hexagonal? Octagonal? It's certainly of that robust section Peter mentioned. The chape is a revelation. I've seen similar-looking pieces in Austrian/German artwork of the period but didn't know for sure if they were as simple as they appear. Now I know that there were such very simple chapes. Makes me wonder, though, if my scabbards are too thin, or conform too closely to the blade. The section of that scabbard at the chape appears to be more of a rounded rectangle. In fact, the scabbard overall appears to be as robust as the grip.

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

Sean,

The scabbard is pretty sturdy but perhaps not as thick as it may look in the photos. Still the section of the scabbard would originally have been a rather generous oval section. Perhaps as thick as 1.8 or 2 cm at the top.
Not all scabbards were as robust as this one. Some are much slimmer in section. The two core halves were carved out of solid wood on this one, not thin veneers as on other scabbards of this period.

The grip is a rounded rectangular section (=rectangle with swelling sides). It is fairly substantial. Roughly 3.7 x 2.8 cm at the thickest part in the middle.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 25 Jan, 2010 10:23 am Post subject:

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2010 1:54 pm Post subject:

I found a cross! It's about halfway to where it needs to be. We'll see if I can manage the rest. The question now is the pommel. I (supposedly) have a spherical pommel on the way, but I also have a smallish scent stopper pommel I could grind down.

Eric Hejdström · Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2010 2:00 pm Post subject:

I think the shperical ones look kinda comfy to use but I also like the scentstopper ones. Since I will re use the pommel from my Del Tin I'll go for the latter.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2010 2:16 pm Post subject:

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 01 Feb, 2010 11:51 am Post subject:

I now have the (prospective) blade in hand. It's 113 cm (44.5") long overall. Its original specs are longer due to a scew-on pommel. Blade is still around 91.4 cm (36",) including the ricasso I'll be eliminating.

Is the overall length still going to be within historical bounds? The fuller is a bit longer than in my sample image--almost half the blade. Looking at the images of originals, that doesn't seem to be a problem. Taking the ricasso will give me a blade about 2.75 x the hilt. Reasonable?

Peter mentioned that there are swords of single-hand proportion with these long grips, so I'm hoping that my blade will fall somewhere in-between those and the 140 cm I'm seeing for some of these.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 02 Feb, 2010 7:44 am Post subject:

Here's a VERY rough clay sketch. Didn't have my reference photos on hand, but this seems reasonable. I now have the blade and the "mandarin" pommel. The cross is on the way, and I might be able to get a small scent-stopper pommel as an alternative. In this configuration, with the globular pommel and a straight steel cross, the POB seems to be something like 2.5" below the cross. Very comfortable, but it's hard to say if it's appropriate because I can't move the weapon around with the weights just balanced on it Happy

Likewise, the grip is too rough and incomplete to get a sense for whether it works with the sword. Thoughts?

Eric Hejdström · Posted: Tue 02 Feb, 2010 1:31 pm Post subject:

Nice going Sean! I'm so jealous of you now. I want a workshop too, grinding in the apartment doesn't seem like a good idea... I really like the spherical pommel, fits very well together with your choice of cross. I think you should go for a quite straight, a tad bit tapering, grip like on your 3d scetch. Just don't make it too thick. I like the slender look combined with the pommel. It's a nice shape, no fuzzy details to worry about. Vlean crisp design for an effective cutting tool.

I reall need to get mine started now...

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 02 Feb, 2010 1:50 pm Post subject:

Eric Hejdström · Posted: Wed 03 Feb, 2010 1:28 am Post subject:

I have the moster of a ricasso on the Del Tin to grind down. Don't know if I wanna do that all by hand. But the biggest problem is that my workspace is now the babyroom...
Hmm.. I think I will talk my mom into using their garage even if they have a sportscar in there.. Just gotta be careful where I aim those sparks, ha ha. Worst part is that it's horribly cold there. Winter is good, since it gives you time to come up with new ideas. But it's also bad since I can't really work outside with them. I'll take some pictures as soon as I get started...

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

Sean, Looks good :-)

Possibly the pommel is a bit big?

You´ll get a feel for this when it comes nearer completion.

Coming on nicely!

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 03 Feb, 2010 7:31 am Post subject:

Cold? In Sweden? In February? Big Grin

Do you have a Dremel tool, Eric? The "cutoff wheels" for that tool are ideal for cutting down a ricasso. Much less mess and noise. Still not something you'd want to do next to a baby, but probably a bit faster than grinding, so not as bad to do standing outside for ten minutes.

Peter: Thanks for the observation about the pommel. The clay version is very slightly larger than the steel, but close enough I'll probably have to reduce the steel version with filework. I'm taking to heart your "mandarin" image. Big Grin