[Michael Edelson]

[Taylor Ellis]

I must have somehow missed out on this thread at the time (I think I was on deployment?), but after reading through it in it's entirety, I have some ideas or observations. The tests showed that the stiffer swords had the advantage cutting the jack, whilst the kat was the best of all against it. The flatter, flexible XIIIa had a difficult time with it.

The obvious part, to me at least, is that we are missing something. If we can assume the Duke is an accurate historical depiction of the swords in use at the time of mail (and I think we certainly can), and it isn't doing that well against defences it would typically have encountered, something's amiss right? If the design was inefficient it would have been dumped (those Euros are nothing if not practical).

Perhaps the difference centers around the use of the XIIIa. Since we don't have any manuals that address these type of weapons specifically, the best we can do is make educated guesses using later manuals. Whilst it's obvious the duke is never going to shear through mail, a shearing blow (as Oakeshott would say) against an armoured clavicle, elbow, shin etc is still going to be devastating. In this situation, it would be my assumption that the XIIIa would generate far more force onto a fairly small area than both the post XV types or the katana. The greater reach would also enable it to get around shields etc easier as well.

The obvious question is why make the X-XIII types if a mace or axe will simply be better since they generate even more force onto those specific targets? As far as I know, maces and axes were more common. But the X-XIII types still have advantages. Firstly, not everyone is going to be armoured, and as Michael's test against tatami show, the XIIIa would shine. Secondly there is the aforementioned length advantage that helps combat the ever present shields of the period. Thirdly is the fact that these swords, as the ancestors of the European longsword systems could be "fenced" with easier than axes or maces. And there is the intimidation factor that these imposing weapons would carry. Even today's movies, shot centuries after these weapons fell out of use, still give them to the heroes of the story.

Ok, I'll cut my rambling short there I think.

[Luka Borscak]

Michael's later test showed that XIII and XIIIa swords are effective against textile defences with tip cuts. Rounded sharp tips cut well that way. I don't have much experience but I would say that such cuts are draw cuts and sharp rounded tip does in a draw cut what katana's curvature does in a "normal" cut. More experienced people, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Shawn Henthorn]

The theory was also put forward that the lack of an iron or mild core and more of a "spring temper" in the blade could have reduced effectiveness due to the vibrations

[Thom R.]

[Taylor Ellis]

[Jared Smith]

[Nat Lamb]

Circular saws only cut with the "tips" of the teeth, but thos teeth are mooving pretty fast. I imagine tip cuts with the XIII and subtypes are working in a similar way (Sorry about the analogy, I'm a philosopher, not an engineer)

[Nat Lamb]

[Nat Lamb]

[Raino S]

this stuff is fantastic reference .

although i noticed that the rings were all riveted. this is historically true for some mails, however,
i was browsing around on hurstwic.com, specifically this page:
http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manu...g_mail.htm

and one particular part really struck me. they had done studies on the grain of the rings, and they found out this:
[ Linked Image ]
the grain of the whole rings did not follow the shape of the ring, but instead has a a grain structure that suggests the rings were punched out of sheet metal. now i'm curious how a ringmail of this type would stand up to the same attacks as the ones in this thread, compared to other types of ringmail.

[Jesse Eaton]

[Jesse Eaton]

Seeing this thread revived reminded me of the tests I wanted to see. If anyone out there would be so obliged as to test the cuts thrusts and slashes from arrows and swords against all three layers (i.e. 1 layer padded, one layer mail and one layer 30 layer linen) I'm sure we would all appreciate it. I have yet to see this test performed and I think that a lot of the speculation about mail would be well tested this way. If the mail could be put on an impact dummy, that would be even better:)

[Raino S]

[Sander Marechal]

[Jesse Eaton]

I don't think it would fare worse. I think it would fare considerably better. But I would like to know how well it would fare as compared to plate and how well it could handle higher pound bows and short ranges as well as other high powered weapons of the day. It looks, from the original test, that the three layers combined would be amazingly effective. But imagining it is not nearly as good as showing it. I saw yet another one of those stupid TV shows about medieval arms and armor where the 'test' 'medieval mail', use a single layer of butted mail. I would love to be able to point to a historically accurate settup and test. I'd love to see a an impact test dummy in full armor looking like a pin cushion without any holes in the manaquin . Some body really needs to set the record strait.

[William P]

im agreeing with jesse

another culprit id say is cold steel, stabbing and whacking a most likely butted mail shirt with their swords, and tearing a hole in it with the war hammer head *which is smooth faced*
some of the more needle like weapons think would puncture. like their chinese sword breaker which isbuilt like a heavy estoc

even more interestingly though, the warhammer is tested against a gothic sallet (a 'typicical' gothic 15th century harness type) and breastplate, and did a fair amount of damage regardless, the quality of thatbreastplate and sallet i cant ascertine

http://www.coldsteel.com/warhammer.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP3kWUxoZIs this video shows an earlier test

however regarding the earlier maile, it was mentioned it was very difficult to compromise even with a lance thrust. i findthat strange, because it has been mentioned and suggested by multiple sources that it was the crouched lance 's power that suurred on the use of plate, as the energy was too greatfr maile to resist.and this is indicated by the dichotom of the style of fighting when comparing eastern cavelry and western knights, with ottoman and egyptian cavelry having plates in very sparse areas (from the book weapons and fighting techniques of the medieval warrior)
its also mentioned as shown being teted in the series 'weapomnns tthat made britain their segment on armour evolution thelongow and especially the knights lance

[Dan Howard]

[William P]

[William P]

as for cutting with the tip. most of my swords are eiter wallhangers, a wushu broadsword (in which only the top third is thin enough to be whippy,and around halfway the thickness shinks more rapidly at the point the thickness is like sheetmetal essentially. very thin. )
but the broadsword has had some interesting effects. a simple hacking cut on a tough plastic botttle, wont do anything. but a cut with the tip is thin and fast enough to be able to cut into the corner of the bottle and out again.
similar results happen with my 440 stainless jian which i used an acusharpto give an edge,. not good enough to cut straw mats, but slicing with the tip can still make a mark.