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Jesse Frank
Industry Professional
Location: Tallahassee, Fl Joined: 04 May 2005
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Aaron Schnatterly
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 Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Mac-
Thanks a lot for the pictures and thoughts. It'd been a long time (about 20 years, give or take) since I'd seen Meg...
I found a lot of the pieces you posted pictures of to be quite interesting, but this particular one I want to pick your brain about:
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This is a really beautiful piece. I'd love to be able to recreate something like this sometime, as we discussed in Helen's shield thread a month or two ago, but I'm not clear on a few of the finer details. It appears as though there are multiple pieces that are pierced and layered. For example, the outermost layer of leather seems to be cut out in places, and a red (now pink) layer of something underneath. Is this the case, and if so, was the bit underneath red wool, leather, or what? If not, was it painted, or what's the method to give this effect? The brown areas seem to have a different texture more like the black, so I am leaning towards staining or differential dying for this, but your input would be greatly appreciated to clear this up too. Also, the brass fittings - the outer shell is definitely pierced (here come the hearts again - if you recall my thread on German Gothic piercing decorations...) and engraved with scrollwork, but it looks as though there was an inner solid piece that sandwiched some organic in between, or perhaps I am looking at this incorrectly? You wouldn't have any pictures of the whole face, would you? I realize that details get blurred, but I would love to see the entire pattern.
This is really quite something - the time and craftsmanship to make such a thing...
Again, Mac, thanks!
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh
Location: Agder, Norway Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Thanks a lot for sharing those pictures, Mac! You must have had a fabulous time!
Cheers,
Henrik
Constant and true.
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 8:33 am Post subject: |
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A few more images (any questions about anything I've posted please feel free to ask !)
Hi Aaron
I will respond to your question(s), and get up some more pics of the Gwynn targaid (residing at the MOS, Edinburgh) in the next post ! * Claude Blair wrote a good article about this piece, called A Type Of Highland Target, which is included in David Caldwell's "Scottish Weapons & Fortifications 1100-1800". I'll also get up a few more of 'ol Mons Meg !
Mac
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Hi Aaron
First I'll post up a few images ! ( I can provide larger images if you should require them !)
-- 19 1/2" (49.6 cm) diameter, early 18th century .
Unscrewable false boss (horn drinking cup), with it's smaller true boss underneath !
(brass, with engraved inscription : INVERNES 1716 W F)
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Mac, those are great! Thanks a ton!
I don't have the book you referenced - I could chase it if there is enough info to be of significant benefit...
Any idea if there was a spike? I find it strange that there would be a detachable center boss, but then, I don't recall seeing a full boss before - generally was a decorative plug, wasn't it? Horn makes sense... different angles and lighting, it looks pearlescent/keratinous... I was a little surprised at first when it appeared that the center boss was applied to the face of the shield before the leather, as there was no rim secured by the tacks, but the fact that it is a separate removable piece altogether makes it clear now. The 4 smaller bosses do have the edge, and are secured in the manner I expected to see.
Also, in some of the additional pictures, I can clearly make out some rather threadbare and faded fabric in the cutouts in the face. It must have been red - long since faded - and I'd guess fulled wool? Ugh, would it be a bear to tool the leather over top of that - perhaps it was done off the face, then applied? I have enough coat-weight red wool to do this - I'll have to save it.
Any idea if the back was lined with hair-on deer?
I certainly don't have all the skills necessary to make an exact replica of the piece, but this is definitely an interesting possibility for a general concept.
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Hi Aaron
Yes, the detailed photos do help to give one a better understanding of what is going on here !
I may have confused you on one point .....
The unscrewable false boss is made of brass, its just lined with horn so that it can be used to hold liquid and be drank from !
The backing is deer (hair-on) and I don't believe this one was setup with a spike (although if you read the attached articles postscript you will see that another similar targaid did have one !)
* Since Dr. Caldwell's book is out of print, and a bit hard to find, I'll nick a few pages of that article and attach it here !
(all in the interest of education , of course )
Taking on a complex targaid like this one, for your first attempt, would certainly be a challenge.
You may want to start with a simpler form until you get the hang of it ? But I commend your ambitious spirit, Aaron !
( I handled another beautiful & complex targaid in the Glasgow Reserve that had similar cloth under pierced plate work, it was absoultely gorgeous. The boss was fixed but was all cut out with beautiful arrow & circle designs exposing a lush red velvet-ty material ..... stunning !
It weighed in at 6 lbs. 3oz. ( quite a bit heavier than another I weighed at the Burrell which was only 3 lbs. 13 oz.)
Here's the article ...... best of luck, Mac
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Again, Mac, thanks a ton. Really neat to see the details - just from a craftsman point of view. There is a huge artistic value to these pieces, as far as I am concerned.
| Thomas McDonald wrote: | | I may have confused you on one point ..... |
Naw, you were clear. I wasn't so clear in my expressing my initial thoughts...
| Thomas McDonald wrote: | | The backing is deer (hair-on) and I don't believe this one was setup with a spike (although if you read the attached articles postscript you will see that another similar targaid did have one !) |
Figured as much with the deer... still chasing that down. I'll find some somewhere... Looking at this as a possible future project, I would not wish to make an exact replication - doubt I could pull every element together if I wanted to - but I would wish to keep the spirit and some of the wilder elements. I'l probably opt for a spike, not sure if I would go with a complete additional boss, or just a plug. The wool or velvet under the leather, and perhaps the spirit of the decoration on the face, and maybe even the pierced boss(es) may show up.
| Thomas McDonald wrote: | Taking on a complex targaid like this one, for your first attempt, would certainly be a challenge.
You may want to start with a simpler form until you get the hang of it ? But I commend your ambitious spirit, Aaron ! |
We'll see... first time I used a MIG welder was on 23-gauge steel sheet... succeeded only because nobody told me I couldn't. The tooling will be time-consuming, but won't be my first rodeo. I find brass outrageously obnoxious to work with, but I'll find a way. Laying out the patterns on the face will be the biggest task. Woods don't scare me in the least. Figuring out some of the internals may be a bit interesting, too, but I may accept a degree of "disguised modern" as a reasonable substitute - for example, a flange inside the boss to hold the spike or the plug using standard taps and dies, rather than rigging up some form of plate/staple/course-threaded beast... This will be a project that gets done over time - no particular timeline. I have enough scheduled work in my shop already, and it's a piece I want to do just to see if I can. Since I have done almost all of these crafts in different ways on different projects in the past (even made a few shields, but not quite like this), I know I can pull off each stage reasonably well. I have to set the bar at a challenging level, or it won't be any fun (and probably will never get done as a result).
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Mons Meg
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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T. McDonald, 2005.
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Mac, 2005.
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Sean Flynt
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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A few nice shots of Vince & Grace Evans ......
(at Castles Stirling & Urquhart, and one of Gracie with that awesome James Grant baskethilt )
Mac
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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More targaid !
First few are from the MOS , last one resides at Urquhart Castle !
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Wow... seeing Urquhart in the background had a bit of a surprising effect on me - a very pleasant, peaceful feeling related to when I was there. Loch Ness sure looks beautiful in the background, eh? I went for a trip from Girton, up through Inverness, back down, through London back in 1985. Urquhart was one of the castles we stopped to see - very interesting architecture. Bit of a long story, but to sum it up, it was my first big adventure - at 14, I traveled abroad alone to visit a friend whose family moved a year prior... This castle (and a few others - many of which you visited on this trip, Mac) is part of the reason I have such an interest in all of this today!
Of course, Vince and Grace look well, too - pass on a hello for me, would you, Mac?
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | Wow... seeing Urquhart in the background had a bit of a surprising effect on me - a very pleasant, peaceful feeling related to when I was there. Loch Ness sure looks beautiful in the background, eh? I went for a trip from Girton, up through Inverness, back down, through London back in 1985. Urquhart was one of the castles we stopped to see - very interesting architecture. Bit of a long story, but to sum it up, it was my first big adventure - at 14, I traveled abroad alone to visit a friend whose family moved a year prior... This castle (and a few others - many of which you visited on this trip, Mac) is part of the reason I have such an interest in all of this today!
Of course, Vince and Grace look well, too - pass on a hello for me, would you, Mac? |
Hi Aaron
I will indeed relay your "hello" to Vince & Grace !
(although I suspect Vince may read it for himself as he does frequent mA often. )
Fourteen is an impressionable age for sure (my daughter is currently 14 so I know all too well ;-) .
You know doubt have some awesome memories in that head of yours, just the kind of upbringing that every young lad should get to have ! Pretty cool, my man !
Here be some detail shots of the 'MacKay' targaid, at the Hunterian Museum, Glasgow !
This is one is listed as the earliest dated targe which has '1623' engraved on its brass boss.
Alba gu brath, Mac
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | Also, in some of the additional pictures, I can clearly make out some rather threadbare and faded fabric in the cutouts in the face. It must have been red - long since faded - and I'd guess fulled wool? Ugh, would it be a bear to tool the leather over top of that - perhaps it was done off the face, then applied? |
Hi again Aaron
I just reread what you wrote above and it finally sank in as to what you were asking/saying !
(guess I need a picture posting break ;-)
Anyways .....
Aye, I suspect any tooling of leather would very likely have been done before anything was secured over fabric, etc!
I did notice that the other targe, with the red fabric under the brass plates, in Glasgow, had only cut-out strips of cloth under the brass pieces! Many of the pierced brass pieces had sections that were damaged, or missing, and you could clearly see that the cloth was added as little cut-out pieces to fit under them !
Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Thomas McDonald wrote: | | I did notice that the other targe, with the red fabric under the brass plates, in Glasgow, had only cut-out strips of cloth under the brass pieces! Many of the pierced brass pieces had sections that were damaged, or missing, and you could clearly see that the cloth was added as little cut-out pieces to fit under them ! |
Mac, this most certainly makes sense. Why add the weight, waste the material on something that won't be seen. This could have been accomplished with leftover cuttings rather than a whole large piece... I may well follow suit, depending upon the size and proximity of any cutouts that I might choose to add. I've a couple of yards of red linen, too - not as bright, and most definitely not as thick (the wool is about as thick as a quarter when felted!), and possibly would be a better choice, but we'll have to see.
Another thing I noticed was the variety of methods used to decorate the bosses on these just in this thread alone! A few look to be crudely chased. Others have been relieved - designs dished into the back. Still others look to have been very cleanly and deeply engraved or possibly etched. Still others have been pierced and lined. Really a wide variety!
I did do some looking at other pieces of the design - spent a lot of time with these pics and some others, too - and have formulated a fair plan on how to actually assemble the piece. Now, I'll just have to start accumulating all the supplies to do so. LOTS of brass tacks... Oh, and yes, Sean... I was aware, but that's a great source, and I appreciate your bringing it up. I'll do some sketching and playing around... probably look at tinkering with this after the new year rolls around.
A pair of related questions that did pop into my head, Mac... a few places mention dates (sometimes also initials or some identifying mark) etched into the design... is this normally the case, occasionally, rarely? Any other "traditionally present" elements that I haven't picked up on yet?
I really find this fascinating!
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | A pair of related questions that did pop into my head, Mac... a few places mention dates (sometimes also initials or some identifying mark) etched into the design... is this normally the case, occasionally, rarely? Any other "traditionally present" elements that I haven't picked up on yet? I really find this fascinating! |
Hi Aaron
There are other examples that have initials & date (like the Lord Lovat targaid), associated heraldic achievement designs (such as MacDonnell of Keppoch), or even clan association (MacDonald of the Isles), etc., so like with all this stuff it's kinda all over the place ! I've not seen nearly enough of them to form any solid opinion in terms of what was normal, or rare, across the (pegged) boards (no pun intended ;-)
Checkout the User Album section of this site, as I have an album there that contains quite a few Scottish targes !
It may give you some more ideas, etc!
Mac
Targaid residing at the Smith Art Gallery & Museum, Stirling .
(that spike has gotta be a later replacement, 'eh ? ;-)
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Mac,
Can you tell me anything about that piece of mail in the close-up photo? Do you know if it's original or of modern manufacture?
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