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Howard Waddell
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2007 8:10 am    Post subject: Introducing... The Meyer         Reply with quote

The prototype is finished for the Maestro Line Meyer...



Specifications
Total length: 47.75" (121.3 cm)
Blade length: 36.5" (92.7 cm)
Blade width: 1.3" (3.3 cm)
Ricasso width: 3.215" (7.9 cm)
Guard width: 11.25" (28.6 cm
CoG: 3.5" (8.9 cm)
CoP: 22" (55.9 cm))
Weight: 3 lbs 3 oz (1.44 kg)

more photos here:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ma...-meyer.htm

Best,

Howy

Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Hugo Voisine




PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2007 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I still prefer the Liechtenauer, but this one is cool too. Very nice guard. Happy
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D. Rosen




PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2007 8:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's absolutely amazing.... Big Grin I think it looks perfect. The hilt is beautiful too.

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2007 9:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very cool. What's the edge thickness though?

(and as an FYI, the image on the Albion page is of Joachim Meyer's rapier section, not of his longsword... Wink Not a big deal, just thought I'd let you know)

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Hugo Voisine




PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If its like the Liechtenauer then the edge should be around 2mm thick...
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Scott Hanson




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2007 2:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks very nice. If I hadn't just ordered a Liechtenauer, I'd be pretty tempted.

The tip looks like it might be slightly wider than the tip of the Liechtenauer. I wonder if that's just my imagination.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2007 4:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have a couple of questions. First, to my untrained eye, it looks as though it would be significantly more work to make the ricasso flair for the Meyer, which would also presumably require a significantly different distal taper in order to keep the sword balance. However, the price for the Meyer and the Liechtenauer is the same. So what am I missing about the Meyer (or Liechtenauer) that puts the two swords at the same price point?

Secondly, both of these swords are designed to serve as practice swords for the same set of Next Gens, namely the Ringeck, Talhoffer, Fiore, Sempach, Landgraf, Regent, Earl. So, aside from aesthetics and probably a bit of difference in handling, is there any other differences between these two swords?

Though I still haven't fallen in love with the federschwerter, Albion and Peter have done nice work on this sword. I especially like the fact that the pommel is the same as an antique feder that I saw in a German museum.
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
I have a couple of questions. First, to my untrained eye, it looks as though it would be significantly more work to make the ricasso flair for the Meyer, which would also presumably require a significantly different distal taper in order to keep the sword balance. However, the price for the Meyer and the Liechtenauer is the same. So what am I missing about the Meyer (or Liechtenauer) that puts the two swords at the same price point?


I am thinking the CNC machine gets more of a workout on the ricasso, but it is not huge in terms of manual labor costs. The guards are pretty similar. I would bet the manual cleanup of the facets on the Liechtenauer pommel's casting offsets the additional polishing effort on the Meyer....

I understand that no manufacturer can assume liability for live steel practice risks. Regardless, some people will perform rehearsed drills with wasters, and later live steel as they obtain expert control. Nothing can really be done to stop broken bones if "experts" slip up. You can greatly reduce risks of lacerations. As practice swords 2 mm edge thickness (if accurate, I thought I had read that somewhere but don't see it here) still represents a pretty concentrated area of force at the edge. This is not much different than my rebated Crecy that can still chop small tree limbs so effortlessly that one not familiar with how sharp swords are might not realize it was rebated. I would like to see a very deep fuller (leaving a 2 mm thick web at the core or spine of the blade) and larger spherical edges (cross section like a dumb bell.) This might not work in terms of stiffness, but would minimize cutting potential and concentration of forces if edges did contact something. I am curious if anyone has measured the thickness at the fuller and can state how closely the geometry is like a dumb bell?

The attached image represents 3 cross section geometries (laid out equivalent area & area moments of inertia in both horizontal and vertical planes using calculator and graph paper) with nearly identical mass per unit length as well as structural stiffness in both cutting and thrust orientation, but very different cutting edge traits; 1) sharpest cutting angle edge of the three cases [hollow ground would be sharper], 2) more durable edge angle with no penalty of added thickness at the spine of the blade + same weight as sharpest cutting edge, and 3) most blunt edge. I am wondering how closely the Maestro models approximate the bottom cross section. It is important to note that these figures do not address fatigue failures, and difficulties associated with heat treat!



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Gary Grzybek




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2007 2:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, that's pretty much just how I pictured it would look.

As usual, a very fine job by Albion Big Grin

Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2007 4:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

Obviously this is a magnificent sword as all the weapons I've seen from Albion have been. These guys are clearly the best of the best in my opinion.

I have a question, however: Why the fuller? We have extant Paratschwert (training swords) from this period at the Met (see attached picture) and they have no fullers, nor do any of those portrayed in any of the Fechtbücher that I have seen show fullers.

I understand that Albion is using the fullers to balance the swords, of course, just as they did with their Liechtenauer training sword, but I don't get why they had to use a modern approach (yes, I know fullers are medieval but they don't appear to have been used on these kinds of swords--if I'm mistaken then please accept my sincere apologies for this post) when a medieval approach is available.

I felt the same sort of disappointment about the Liechtenauer when it came out: Here we had a medieval problem--how to make a (relatively) safe sword for practice. You have to thicken the edge for safety but that ruins the balance, so you have to come up with a way to adjust the balance of the weapon and also add some flex to the blade for thrusting. There are a number of potential solutions from exotic materials (tungsten perhaps) to geometry (as they did with the Liechtenauer), but to my mind the best solution would have been to study what medieval men did to solve the problem (since for once we actually know) and then apply that solution. If we're practicing a medieval art shouldn't we look for medieval solutions to the problems they faced wherever possible?

I have been eagerly looking forward to the Meyer for some time now since I really do consider Albion's swords to be the best out there, but after seeing these pictures I think I will regretfully have to stick with Arms and Armor's Fechtespiel which, while not as well made as some of the swords I've seen from Albion, is still very, very good and is more true to the art I practice.



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Training Swords at the Met [ Download ]

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2007 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I guess it depends on the goal: Making a safe training sword with the handling as close as possible to a sharp sword or to make a reproduction of a period training sword ?

In period there may have been much less concern about accidental wounds and fewer liability lawyers. Wink Laughing Out Loud

In part training with a blunt that can hurt you badly but not as badly as a sharp might have in period been considered part of learning to deal with fear, pain and injury in a realistic manner ? Having to face real swords in real life would change ones perception about how safe a training tool should be, and a higher level of risk and skill in handling a training sword would have been the norm and even preferable ?

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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2007 8:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I guess it depends on the goal: Making a safe training sword with the handling as close as possible to a sharp sword or to make a reproduction of a period training sword ?

In period there may have been much less concern about accidental wounds and fewer liability lawyers. Wink Laughing Out Loud

In part training with a blunt that can hurt you badly but not as badly as a sharp might have in period been considered part of learning to deal with fear, pain and injury in a realistic manner ? Having to face real swords in real life would change ones perception about how safe a training tool should be, and a higher level of risk and skill in handling a training sword would have been the norm and even preferable ?


I have Arms and Armor's Fechterspiel. I don't see how it's any less safe in spite of being a very close replica of the real things. Weight, size, all are very similar to Albion's Meyer. I do not believe safety is an issue here.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2007 8:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I guess it depends on the goal: Making a safe training sword with the handling as close as possible to a sharp sword or to make a reproduction of a period training sword ?

In period there may have been much less concern about accidental wounds and fewer liability lawyers. Wink Laughing Out Loud

In part training with a blunt that can hurt you badly but not as badly as a sharp might have in period been considered part of learning to deal with fear, pain and injury in a realistic manner ? Having to face real swords in real life would change ones perception about how safe a training tool should be, and a higher level of risk and skill in handling a training sword would have been the norm and even preferable ?


I have Arms and Armor's Fechterspiel. I don't see how it's any less safe in spite of being a very close replica of the real things. Weight, size, all are very similar to Albion's Meyer. I do not believe safety is an issue here.


No problem, I was just asking questions and proposing some theories and this is not an area where I have expertise.

Period training sword may well be as safe to use. Cool Maybe someone at Albion or Peter will explain the reasons for some aesthetic or functional choices.

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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr, 2007 12:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey guys!

Thanks for all your comments.

The Meyer is built and designed mimic the heft and behaviour of sharp longswords, just like the historical federswords were made to funciton as swords while remaining relatively safe to use.
If you look closely through the many historical images depicting these training swords you will se that there is quite some variation to the cross section hinted by lines and shadows. It seems that both midribds (hollow ground edge bevels on each side?) and fullers were introduced in the making of these training swords. There are only very few of these remaining as actual specimen in museums: they will not show a representation of the full spectrum of the shape of these swords originally could have. There are limits to what you can do with a rectangular cross section and still remain safe according to modern standards. To bring the blade to where I wanted it in handling I needed to base the design on measurements of actual sharp swords while basing the design of the shape on represetnations in art for the visual shape.
I have seen and handled "safe" blunt single hand training blades that would easily have lacerated the opponent (even if not cutting deep or severing bone) Perhaps even the capability of sometimes causing a superficial wound was actually the intention: bouting to first blood? A thin section like that (*not* a safe 2mm edge, rather 0,5 mm!) will also allow you to get a handling that is very close to that of a sharp sword. This is not a feasible design solution for modern practitioners however, even if it is realistic and historically accurate.

When I designed the Meyer I made the blade so it could behave very closely to sharp long swords of the same general size and wight. To do this and also have a safe edge you need to use fullers to remove "dead meat" from the middle of the blade. A fuller will also increase flexibility somewhat, compared to the same cross section without a fuller. In this case this is a good thing.
I still wanted a reasonable stiffness in the forte, to avoid an overly wobbly blade. The idea is that you should be able to preform techniques involving blade contact without the training swords bouncing away from each other: this will be harmful for a development of good technique. The flexibility is such that you can train thrusts if you have adequate protective gear. I would not suggest full force thrusts: those will bruise and could possibly crack ribs, but a controlled thrust against stiff padding should be possible. Thusting is always dangerous, so caution always needs to be observed when training these techniques.
The Meyer is more flexible than the Liechtenauer. It is not meant to be so flexible that the thrust is favoured on expense on its behaviour in other types of sword play. You can make it more flexible, but the price is a blade that wobbles and bounces in parries and deflections.
The Meyer have the same size and radius in the point as the Liechtenauer, but it might look broader since the whole blade is slimmer.
The Meyer have an increased edge thickness towards the base, reaching a maximum of some 5 mm just in front of the ricasso. Towards the point the edge thickness decreases to 2 mm. The blunt edge is rounded, naturally.
The cross section can be likened to an H-beam with rounded hollows. It is indeed a way to retain the same mass at any given point as that a sharp blade of the same weight would have.
The Liechtenauer has a constant 2 mm edge thickness, but benefits form the same cross section.

In weight the Meyer is very close to the Munich.
It could be compared in handling to lighter long swords in the NG line, but is not meant to precicely duplicate any specific sword. In handling it compares pretty closely to the Count, Steward, and the coming Hauptmann and Markgraf. Possibly also the Crecy.
The Meyer is quicker and more nimble than the Liechtenauer. It is also more flexible.

The swords in the Maestro Line are built and finished in a different way than Next generation swords, therefore it is not possible to make comparisons in amount of detailing and complexity. There are different factors that add up to work hours in the two lines because of different finishing techniques. Quite a bit of thought has gone into developing a design and manufacture that allows defined and developed blade shapes and detailed hilts to be offered at a low cost. Safety, realistic handling and structural integrity has been the first three priorities in the development of these swords.

Thank you looking and responding
Happy
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Peter Törlind





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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 1:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have at least orderd a Meyer, my first Albion Sword;-)
I also have a Valkyria on pre order so I hope both swords arrive before the summer...
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Gary Grzybek




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 3:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just received my Meyer today Big Grin

Trust me when I say it looks far better in person then in the pictures.This is a very attractive sword even for a trainer. My first impression was how light the Meyer feels in the hands. It really balances well and after a few cuts I realized how much control there is. The long grip gives ample room for any additional hand protection plus allowing for added leverage. I'm a big fan of long grips so this is a nice treat. The edge is thick! I don't have a measurement but it's thicker than any training sword I've seen to date. The blade has just the right amount of flex without being wippy. This is importaint since we do a lot of thrusting. Anyone who has been checking out the Meyer I say , go for it. You will be complete in your training gear I promise.

Where were these when I first started out in WMA's?

Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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