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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 9:28 am    Post subject: Test cuts on horses?         Reply with quote

Hello everyone.

I was browsing around when i found a shocking article in the web in wich i found this:

Quote:
The Knights themselves, though, had no love of their horse. Some tales have been told of Knights cutting of the head of their horse and sending it to the stable master they bought it from only because they had fallen from their horse while riding or in battle.


http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=knight

Knights and other soldiers maybe used to be brutish people in the batlefield, but Cutting his horse´s head for such thing? Can anyone corroborate that statement?

Truly, i don´t know how accurate that site is and it smells like sh Exclamation t, since they used to ride expensive stallions, i know that during a battle, soldiers used to steal or kill enemy´s horses, but killing their own comrades?

Thanks.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't buy that. The thing is, a good horse was EXPENCIVE. You do not waste that kind of money.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Max von Bargen




Location: Stanford, CA
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 10:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That statement looks almost certainly incorrect. Horses were extremely valuable possessions. If someone is going to make such an extravagant claim, they need to back it up with credible sources in order to even start believing it.

Max
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Geoff Wood




Location: UK
Joined: 31 Aug 2003

Posts: 634

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 10:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sounds a bit like the story of the (apocryphal?) man who set his polo pony on fire because he lost a match.
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Jeff Hughes





Joined: 12 Jan 2007

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

really i fell off my horse so i killed it and packed my sorry butt and all my gear home on foot. they may have been brutes but idiots i think not. the travel and cost of a action would be high. even if they did not like the horse i would think they would peddle it to some other knight.
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Michael Olsen





Joined: 28 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 12:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"I stubbed my toe on my brand new handmade mahogany desk, so I dragged it outside and burned it to ashes, then mailed them to the carpenter."

Just doesn't make since. I call shenanigans!

Michael Olsen
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am reading viking sagas, and a man was called an "unbearable showoff" for cutting a WHOLE HANDS WIDTH of fine cloth off the bottom of his garment ,and throwing it away for being 'dirty.'
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not shocking, just silly,.

Read the book written in 1438 by Dom Duarte. It is by far the best book on horse-riding that I know of (and I have a library full of them) has been translated in english, is availeable from Amazon.

Peter
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As shocking i was refering to the fact that a man-at-arms would have killed his horse for such silly reason, or like in some movies where an enemy soldier defeat a horse and the downed horsed is finished off while in the ground instead of killing tha rider. Weren´t horse armour made to fit the animal like human armours? What would the knight do with the animal´s armour after cutting his head off? And all aditional bargain? I think in some, if not most cases, those horses recieved better care than ordinary soldiers.
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just don't think it would happen normally but I guess anything is possible in a state of irrational rage or mental illness.

No reason to rule out a warrior becoming unbalanced after some brain injury, a brain tumour affecting his rationality, a psychotic episode of hearing voices telling him that his horse is the devil etc .....

Good war horses would be much to valuable and even an " bad " horse with good genetics might still be used as breeding stock if wounded in a way to be unusable for war.

Killing the opponents horse as the only way to survive / win a fight would be a last resort and very different than killing a horse during a hissy fit. Laughing Out Loud

In any case the stupid killing of a horse like this might have ended up in some period records because it was so rare, unusual, barbaric, stupid ? Also, what was the source of this story ? ( Not from a computer game or Dragons and Dungeon blurb in a play instruction manual passing itself off as historical background ? )

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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D. Bell




Location: New Zealand
Joined: 01 May 2004

Posts: 73

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 9:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe the reason the knights ‘fell off’ their horses was because they had been killed under them, and it was the corpses that were decapitated.

Alternatively, I don’t consider it particularly farfetched that a knight who was thrown from what he had been assured was a well trained mount, and as a consequence nearly died, would kill the guilty horse in a fit of rage, and then send the head back to the stable master who sold it to him. He might regret killing it later when he had calmed down, but that wouldn’t change the facts.

An armed society is a polite society.
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I just don't think it would happen normally but I guess anything is possible in a state of irrational rage or mental illness.


Yes, but the point of the story isn't "Jackass did X" It is "Warrior class did X." Which is of course just plain silly. One guy, one horse, ok. Cultural habit, no way.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Mar, 2007 12:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I just don't think it would happen normally but I guess anything is possible in a state of irrational rage or mental illness.


Yes, but the point of the story isn't "Jackass did X" It is "Warrior class did X." Which is of course just plain silly. One guy, one horse, ok. Cultural habit, no way.


Then we agree completely that as a " cultural habit " it doesn't have any credibility !

Seeing what the original source of this would help a lot ! Otherwise it's just speculation based on very little.

( Ah, I hadn't notice the link in the first post. Blush I should at least have a look to see who wrote it. Wink )

( Edited: Read it and at the bottom of the page there is mention of " Final Fantasy " so it does seem related to a gamer site at least to a degree: Didn't go deep into it to check. More like the blurb in a game manual ! The negative opinions about Knights is debatable in contrast to exaggerated tales of honour, chivalry etc ..... but may go to far with the " brutish " generalizations. Just my opinion. Wink )

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Mar, 2007 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it is somewhat ridiculous. It could be based on the old way to recieve compensation as a knght with a dead horse killed during campaign. You present the ears and tail to the kings accountant and he pays a reimbursement for its death. Hardly to do with fits of rage and much less than a head cut off but as we know the horse was expensive.

I am also sure someone ate the horse afterwards as well if possible------- Big Grin

RPM
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Edward Hitchens




Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Mar, 2007 1:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't buy that at all. WTF?! Mad

While having horse was considered highly beneficial, it was also expensive -- much like owning a car today. Horses were meticulously trained, depending on what the owner/rider was going to do with the animal which also depended on the breed of the horse (use in battle, agriculture, pulling a cart, or transportation). In some periods and cultures (Medieval/Renaissance Europe being no exception), horses were very highly revered, even worshipped.

As an animal lover, I'll say that the only time I would deliberately end my horse's life would be if it was suffering from some sort of incurable pain (old age / disease / injury from battle). -Ted

"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Thu 08 Mar, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes, but the point of the story isn't "Jackass did X" It is "Warrior class did X." Which is of course just plain silly. One guy, one horse, ok. Cultural habit, no way.


I think that there is feeling in our culture, wich clasifies Medieval and Renaissance people as brutish, evil, corrupt and else (Even more when the Samurai is sneacking around). I neighter don´t buy the image of the knight as a Saint on Earth, nor the wicked corrupted rapist men, but i think they were people like us in different circumstances, so, it could be men-at-arms or knights who loved their partner stallions leaving aside their cost, maybe not like Lassie-Timmy, but some kind of special relation could be.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Jeff Hughes





Joined: 12 Jan 2007

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu 08 Mar, 2007 4:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

well looking at the link this is nothing more than a wiki type site. and the post is trying to dispute the chivalry idea of knights. he is saying they were evil
( rape laddies and lasses and even little ladds. killed horses. turtored their subjects and such. this is nothing more than a persons twisted post with no historical reference to back up his claims. while i don't believe in the whole knight in shinny armor. i don't think they were any worse than other people of the era. some good some bad but most in the middle.
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Edward Hitchens




Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Mar, 2007 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Test cuts on horses?         Reply with quote

Rodolfo Martínez wrote:

Quote:
The Knights themselves, though, had no love of their horse. Some tales have been told of Knights cutting of the head of their horse and sending it to the stable master they bought it from only because they had fallen from their horse while riding or in battle.


http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=knight


I just read that post in its entirety. "Amusing." That's the only way I describe it. Laughing Out Loud You know, when you develop a love of history (in this case, Medieval Knights), you find yourself wanting to learn more about what the period was really like. You pick up a few books written by reputable scholars and historians; you later become quite knowledgable. Then you come across something outlandish like this and you feel insulted. Well, the feelings of resentment eventually evolve into downright humor! Sure, I could reply to whoever wrote that passage and tell him/her/them how full of it they are. But what would that accomplish? Nothing. Why give a negative response to something you found humorous? I especially liked the bit about knights making necklaces out of their vanquished foes' eyes (LOL! Razz )

I apologize for deviating from Rodolfo's topic. I assume that Rodolfo was just wanting to clear up something that he was unsure of. Hey, that's what we're all here for! Cool In the years I've been studying this era of history, knights were by-and-large good people who certainly loved and took care of their horses. Wink

"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Mar, 2007 8:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And some men-at-arms seemed to have cared more for their horse than they did for their families. ;P
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Joe Yurgil





Joined: 01 Jun 2004

Posts: 122

PostPosted: Fri 09 Mar, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now that, I would buy.
Sjá, þar sé ek föður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek móður mina ok systur mina ok bróður minn.
Sjá, þar sé ek allan minn frændgarð.
Sjá, kalla þeim tíl min.
Biðja mér at taka minn stað hjá þeim í sölum Valhallar, þar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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