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Jeff Hughes





Joined: 12 Jan 2007

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PostPosted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: templar cape fabric         Reply with quote

i am looking for a few pointers from the pro's. im going to make a templar cape and tunic and im not sure of cloth.

1. for this period would it be camel hair or heavy linen?

2. what weight of fabric 7.5 oz. - 10 oz. ?

3. and a good place to get said fabric.



thanks again for the help
jeff
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 2:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This was posted in the Historic Arms Talk forum which is described as this: "Discussions of reproduction and authentic historical arms and armour from various cultures and time periods"

Moved to off-topic...

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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 6:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Most european cloaks and capes are wool, though I am sure some would have been linen. However, I don't think 10oz is gonna be heavy enough for a cloak. I use 10oz linen for my undertunics Laughing Out Loud Maybe if you two layers.
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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I asked a similar question of my professor. He didn’t know the full answer but said that the crusading orders in the holy land would have most likely worn “the best” meaning linen or silk. He also brought up the existence of a fabric called linzy-woolzy made of interwoven linen and wool as a possibility.

I don’t believe wearing silk would have fit with knights like the templar’s. Most of them were born in Europe. There was a cultural difference at the time between the incoming European knights and the old guard who had been born in the holy land and had adopted some eastern customs. The Europe born thought the Jerusalem knights were soft because of there adoption of eastern luxuries like silk and made a point of avoiding them.

I would bet on linen as the fabric of choice
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 7:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another thing to consider is that the Templars were monastic knights. They would have shunned anything the believed too luxurious....
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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 8:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the cloak might be made of wool if the templar was home in Europe
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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 1:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Belair wrote:
He also brought up the existence of a fabric called linzy-woolzy made of interwoven linen and wool as a possibility.


Did he perhaps mean Fustian? Although what Fustian really is is a bit uncertain it is probably a mixed weave, either linen+wool or linen+cotton.

I'd stay clear of linen for a cloak/cape. It is not heavy or thick enough to withstand wind or rain, and it does not give sufficient warmth to sleep in it.

Silk, maybe, but I'd rather use it as a lining for a wool cloak than as a cloak in itself. Unless the silk cloak was composed of several layers.

Anyhow, I'd go for wool. It is relatively weatherproof, it is warm in the cold, and cool when the weather is warm. Happy

Johan Schubert Moen
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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 5:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the real question is where this templar is fighting. If he is on crusade wool would be too worm, linen would protect the armor from heating up in the sun, without causing heat issues itself.
Cotton is an option; they had it in the Middle East if I am not mistaken.
If he is in northern Europe a wool cloak would keep him worm in winter.
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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Belair wrote:
I think the real question is where this templar is fighting. If he is on crusade wool would be too worm, linen would protect the armor from heating up in the sun, without causing heat issues itself.
Cotton is an option; they had it in the Middle East if I am not mistaken.
If he is in northern Europe a wool cloak would keep him worm in winter.


Very good point!

For a European summer clothing I would say: Linen surcoat and a wool cloak! For use in Palestine a linen cloak and linen surcoat and for European winter use Wool/wool outfit.

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Hugh Fuller




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just a thought on what they might have been wearing, although it could be way off base. Cotton was ans is grown in the Nile River valley of Egypt and it was a major crop back into the ancient Egyptian period. Could the Egyptians have been exporting it to their neighbors in Palestine? And, if so, would the Templars have used it. It would have made superior garments for use in the hot sun.
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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Fuller wrote:
Just a thought on what they might have been wearing, although it could be way off base. Cotton was ans is grown in the Nile River valley of Egypt and it was a major crop back into the ancient Egyptian period. Could the Egyptians have been exporting it to their neighbors in Palestine? And, if so, would the Templars have used it. It would have made superior garments for use in the hot sun.


Indeed!

Cool thought!

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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 7:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cotton is mostly inferior to wool in warm weather. Wool retains moisture better than cotton, so you won't sweat out that much water, and the wet wool will act as an aircooler. When cotton gets wet, the moisture evaporates rather quickly, which leads to the body sweating more. As such, you will get dehydrated faster if wearing cotton than if wearing wool. This might not so much be the case with a cloak, versus a tunic, but my own experience puts a wool tunic way above a cotton t-shirt... A woolen cloak worn in the sun also shields you from a lot of the heat.

Johan Schubert Moen
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Hugh Fuller




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan, have you ever worn woolen clothing in really hot weather? By this, I mean at least 35 degrees Centigrade or 95 degrees Fahrenheit. I have a fairly light weight woolen tunic that I simply cannot wear in the Summer or late Spring in the Mid-Atlantic states of the America as it is just too darn hot. I noticed that most living history people in this area wear linen tunics and trousers in the heat. I did finally have a very light weight woolen cloak made so that I could have a cloak to wear in warm weather as I have yet to see a cloak made of anything but wool that hangs properly.
Hugh
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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 8:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Fuller wrote:
Johan, have you ever worn woolen clothing in really hot weather? By this, I mean at least 35 degrees Centigrade or 95 degrees Fahrenheit. I have a fairly light weight woolen tunic that I simply cannot wear in the Summer or late Spring in the Mid-Atlantic states of the America as it is just too darn hot. I noticed that most living history people in this area wear linen tunics and trousers in the heat. I did finally have a very light weight woolen cloak made so that I could have a cloak to wear in warm weather as I have yet to see a cloak made of anything but wool that hangs properly.


I have worked outside in the sun a whole summer, dressed in a woollen tunic and in linen pants, sometimes a wool cloak as well. Temperatures from 25 celsius to 38 celsius. The warmest I've worn wool in was 42 degrees celsius, and I was in activity all day long. Sure, you get hot, and you sweat, but you don't dehydrate. I switched to all linen a few times, and while it is a bit cooler than the wool, I found that I had to drink a lot more water to be in "working order".

Are you sure it is the heat that is causing the problems, and not humidity? I for one have few problems with high temperatures, as long as the humidity level is not too high. I am sure the heat-tolerance varies from person to person as well. Happy

Johan Schubert Moen
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 9:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When discussing wool v. lighter materials for cloaks onre thing needs to be remembered: There's also a period in the desert called nightime where the sun isn't shining. It gets pretty cold in the desert at night.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 9:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cotton was available in the mediteranian at the time. It might be used for the surcote, but since the purpose of the cloak is to stay warm, wool would be preferable.
If it's to hot to wear a woolen cloak, you don't wear it.

However, isn't there a conserved equipment list for knights templar? I seem to remember hearing this quoted.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
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Jeff Hughes





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 9:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
When discussing wool v. lighter materials for cloaks onre thing needs to be remembered: There's also a period in the desert called nightime where the sun isn't shining. It gets pretty cold in the desert at night.



can always count on patrick to get to the point. while the holy land tempatures are comparable to northern california i.e. 6-40 c or 40 - 103 f . with only july thru aug. being extremes. this would support the wool cloak idea with no cloak in the summer or a second light cloak . the other ? would be type of wool i was see refrences to camel hair wool in the middle east. and other thing that baffled me is the depiction of templars with pure white cloaks. i would think the would be more in the natural wool color. any input would be nice
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Hugh Fuller




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In the desert environments of Outremer, I should think that a linen or reasonably sturdy cotton surcoat would work well over the mail armors worn at the time. Wht you wear under the mail might well be a gambeson of whatever design works best for you in whatever environment and use you are putting it to. Under the gambeson, you would wear a tunic, an undertunic, braies, hose and some sort of shoe, IIRC. I would suspect that the tunic and hose were likely woolen or linen but the undertunic and braies could well have been cotton, but of a harder weave than most underclothes today.

When not in armor, Templar knights wore a white hooded cloak over their clothes. It clasped at the neck and had a red templar cross on the left breast. My guess would be that it was of wool. Templar sergeants wore similar cloaks, but theirs were, IIRC, black with the red cross.

Hugh
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James Barker




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 12:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Fuller wrote:
Could the Egyptians have been exporting it to their neighbors in Palestine? And, if so, would the Templars have used it. It would have made superior garments for use in the hot sun.


Cotton is rarely used for clothing in the middle ages. We know for a fact the Italians used fine cotton for sheets and drapes and made a cheap cloth for peasant clothing while the rest of Europe did not use it in that manor. Even in America linen was the main cool fabric until the cotton gin was invented and cotton became easier to manage than linen.

As to crusaders there is an ordinance from one order giving the ok for crusaders to wear a linen tunic instead of a wool one in the heat. There is an ordinance from one of the other orders requiring linen braies, linen shirt, linen hose, wool hose, wool tunic, and wool gown with a hood (I forget the garment name). I will look this up tonight if I remember after work.



Hugh Fuller wrote:
Johan, have you ever worn woolen clothing in really hot weather? By this, I mean at least 35 degrees Centigrade or 95 degrees Fahrenheit. I have a fairly light weight woolen tunic that I simply cannot wear in the Summer or late Spring in the Mid-Atlantic states of the America as it is just too darn hot.


I wear wool even in the summer, I prefer heavy wool on days with low humidity for the reasons Johan mentioned. Men during the Revolutionary War and Civil War had wool uniforms.

James Barker
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Greg Griggs




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Having just finished a Hospitaller kit circa 1205 wherein I did a LOT of research, I ran across only one equipment list dating to that time. Hense the reason I did that particular year. Yes, it was for the Hospitallers, but I don't see why the Templars would have used anything different. In the list it specifically states only the use of wool for the cloaks. It does state that two seperate cloaks will be issued: one lined for cold weather and one unlined for hot. Just my .02 cents. Big Grin
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