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Thomas Beckett




Location: Kansas City, MO
Joined: 23 Feb 2004

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Middle eastern maille/plate shirts         Reply with quote

I hope someone here can help me. I'm helping a friend re-create a Middle-eastern maille shirt, with engraved plates across the front. because of the design on the plates, he doesn't want them to overlap, but want something under them to keep them from gaping when he leans back (this is an SCA fighter). We've seen pics of maille and plate shirts with what looks like a thinner plate underneath the decorated outer plates, but we can't find anything that shows how they were connected. Can anyone help with some pictures of either just the plates from one of these types of shirts, or with some explaination of how they were linked together? Thanks!
"It's only funny until someone gets hurt... then it's hilarious!"
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Middle eastern maille/plate shirts         Reply with quote

Thomas Beckett wrote:
I hope someone here can help me. I'm helping a friend re-create a Middle-eastern maille shirt, with engraved plates across the front. because of the design on the plates, he doesn't want them to overlap, but want something under them to keep them from gaping when he leans back (this is an SCA fighter). We've seen pics of maille and plate shirts with what looks like a thinner plate underneath the decorated outer plates, but we can't find anything that shows how they were connected. Can anyone help with some pictures of either just the plates from one of these types of shirts, or with some explaination of how they were linked together? Thanks!


Check out these links:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4427
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=71813
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/thumbnails.ph...p;uid=3507
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/thumbnails.ph...p;uid=2766
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've just had a closer look at your question. Blush

I have no idea how you stopped mail-and-plate shirts of this type from gaping in front. AFAIK the only thing worn under them was some kind of padded gambeson. I have always just assummed that they were very well buckled (click on the thumbnails):



The second armour, a 16th century Ottoman armour now in the Royal Armouries has 8 buckles on the front.


What puzzles me even more is that some early armours of this type have hooks instead of buckles on the front. I have absolutely no idea how these stayed closed:
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid4/turkey/istanbu...CN6344.JPG
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid4/turkey/istanbu...CN6345.JPG
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid4/turkey/istanbu...CN6360.JPG
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid4/turkey/istanbu...CN6361.JPG


One other thing, mail-and-plate armours seem to have appeared around the late 14th century. Before that, i.e. during the Crusades, Muslim warriors wore plain mail hauberks or lamellar armour.

This picture is of an early 13th century Persian dish. It shows armour on the wall of a fortress (to make the attackers think there are more warriors inside?). The armour sat the top and bottom apprear to be mail shirts, the second armour is either a padded gambeson or perhaps a kazaghand. The 3rd armour seems to be a lamellar cuirass, apparently with alternating rows of iron and leather lamellae worn over some kind of coat:



This is a Depiction of a warrior wearing lamellar armour and a helmet with a mail aventail covering the face. It's from the so-called "Baptistiere de St. Louis" and early 14th century brass basin from Syria or Egypt, now in the Louvre.
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Allan Senefelder
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Location: Upstate NY
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They could also be laced, i've owned two maille and plate shirts that were laced through a series of rings attached to the plates on either side of the main plates on the front.
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have seen lacing on 17th-18th century Indian mail-and-plate armour, but so far i've not seen it on earlier Turkish or Persian armour:

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Tibor Szebenyi




Location: Hungary
Joined: 26 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Sep, 2008 2:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello

I've completed my mail-and-plate shirt. You can see it through this link: http://nomadok.gportal.hu/gindex.php?pg=27550495
Now I'm working on the arm and leg parts. (the helmet is made by a Hungarian smith)

Tibi
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M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Sep, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Awesome work.

M.

This space for rent or lease.
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Sep, 2008 12:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice! I like it very much, excellent work. Happy

Will you be making bazubands, cuisses and greaves as well?

Edit:

Oops! Sorry, I've just noticed that you said you will be making limb defences.
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B. Fulton





Joined: 28 Dec 2004

Posts: 180

PostPosted: Sat 20 Sep, 2008 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've got some of the above pics in my Massive Museum Post thread, both from Leeds and Les Invalides. Quality may be better, can't remember if I included closeups.
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Tibor Szebenyi




Location: Hungary
Joined: 26 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Sep, 2008 6:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Nice! I like it very much, excellent work.

Will you be making bazubands, cuisses and greaves as well?

Edit:

Oops! Sorry, I've just noticed that you said you will be making limb defences.


Yes, it will be a complete suit, and I'm planning a full horse armour in this style, too.
I have a question about the bazubands: usually they are constructed of three plates, and the smaller plates are on the same side of the great one, like on your picture.(so the fastening is between the great plate and one of the small plates)
What if I connect one small plate to the right side of the great, and the other to the left side?(so the fastening would be between the two small plates, on the inner surface of my arm) It seems to me more logical, but the original ones were made in the first way. I've learned, that the original ones have the best solutions, but what is your opinion?
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Reading list: 7 books

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PostPosted: Sat 20 Sep, 2008 3:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tibor Szebenyi wrote:
Quote:
Nice! I like it very much, excellent work.

Will you be making bazubands, cuisses and greaves as well?

Edit:

Oops! Sorry, I've just noticed that you said you will be making limb defences.


Yes, it will be a complete suit, and I'm planning a full horse armour in this style, too.
I have a question about the bazubands: usually they are constructed of three plates, and the smaller plates are on the same side of the great one, like on your picture.(so the fastening is between the great plate and one of the small plates)
What if I connect one small plate to the right side of the great, and the other to the left side?(so the fastening would be between the two small plates, on the inner surface of my arm) It seems to me more logical, but the original ones were made in the first way. I've learned, that the original ones have the best solutions, but what is your opinion?


Like you said, it's more logical, but AFAIK the bazubands were always connected between one of the small plates and one the big plates. In the end you are reconstructing a historical reconstruction, so I suppose it makes sense to copy the way it was done originally. Happy

More pics:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...17th_C.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...16th_C.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...18thC1.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...16th_C.jpg


Many later Indian and Iranian bazubands are constructed differently with two large plates instead of one large and two small plates connected by mail, however I do not recall seeing an example of an Ottoman Turkish bazuband of this type from the 15th-16th century.

18th century Indian bazuband
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Tibor Szebenyi




Location: Hungary
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Oct, 2008 7:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now I'm making the bazubands, and I have a new question:
I make the bazubands together with a chain-covered glove, like the one on one of your links above. Is there an existing example or picture of this kind of glove with separate fingers? Like on Hong-jin Ji's armour in "My Islamic Armour indo-persian Style" topic. Because shooting my bow with a thumb-ring would be more comfortable with separate fingers.

Tibi
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Tibor Szebenyi




Location: Hungary
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PostPosted: Sat 25 Oct, 2008 3:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do any of you know, how to fit the cuisses? Do they hang from the weapon-belt, or from a seperate belt under the torso-piece? Or from straps trough the shoulders? (I hate wearing two belts at the same time...) Happy

Tibi
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2008 7:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tibor Szebenyi wrote:
Now I'm making the bazubands, and I have a new question:
I make the bazubands together with a chain-covered glove, like the one on one of your links above. Is there an existing example or picture of this kind of glove with separate fingers? Like on Hong-jin Ji's armour in "My Islamic Armour indo-persian Style" topic. Because shooting my bow with a thumb-ring would be more comfortable with separate fingers.
Tibi


I've never seen one with separate fingers, but I have seen Indo-Persian bazubands with a stiff leather/quilted fabric 'flap' instead of a mitten. This would protect the back of your hand while leaving the fingers free. Alternatively some 15th-16th century Mamluk bazubands have no hand protection at all.

Tibor Szebenyi wrote:
Do any of you know, how to fit the cuisses? Do they hang from the weapon-belt, or from a seperate belt under the torso-piece? Or from straps trough the shoulders? (I hate wearing two belts at the same time...) Happy

Tibi


Good question, well presented, I have no idea. Big Grin

My guess is that they were suspended from a belt under the mail hauberk, AFAIK this is also the way Medieval European mail 'chausses' were suspended.

See if these pics provide any clues:


[/i]
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Tibor Szebenyi




Location: Hungary
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PostPosted: Fri 12 Jun, 2009 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello

I made some new pictures about my armour, I have done the bazubands and the quivers:

http://nomadok.gportal.hu/gindex.php?pg=27550495

Now comes the leg-harness... and the horse armour, as I've made friendship with a strong little hucul horse.Happy

T
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Reading list: 7 books

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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jun, 2009 12:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tibor Szebenyi wrote:
Hello

I made some new pictures about my armour, I have done the bazubands and the quivers:

http://nomadok.gportal.hu/gindex.php?pg=27550495

Now comes the leg-harness... and the horse armour, as I've made friendship with a strong little hucul horse.Happy

T


Really, Really good! I love it! Happy
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