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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Thu 22 Feb, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: The usage of ¨Knightly¨ weapons in XVI century.         Reply with quote

Hello everyone,

I was browsing arund and i found a site claiing that longswords fall in dis use in the early XVI century and the later versions used to have thinner and smaller grips, Do you know if longswords were used during the second half of the XVI century too, and if their grips were long like type XX and type XVIII swords(Grips of 20cm-30cm)?

And about Poleaxes, another mythified weapon, Do you know if were still in military use during second half of the XVI century, or they were used for tournaments?


Thanks.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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David Evans




Location: Rotherham, West Riding
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Feb, 2007 2:44 am    Post subject: 17th Century Poleaxes         Reply with quote

I have a reference to a Captain of Horse buying a poleaxe in 1643 during the English Civil War. They're still around, just somewhat different in style.
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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Feb, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: The usage of ¨Knightly¨ weapons in XVI century.         Reply with quote

Rodolfo Martínez wrote:
Hello everyone,

I was browsing arund and i found a site claiing that longswords fall in dis use in the early XVI century and the later versions used to have thinner and smaller grips, Do you know if longswords were used during the second half of the XVI century too, and if their grips were long like type XX and type XVIII swords(Grips of 20cm-30cm)?

And about Poleaxes, another mythified weapon, Do you know if were still in military use during second half of the XVI century, or they were used for tournaments?


Thanks.


By longswords, do you mean bastard or hand-and-a-half swords, or are you referring to two-handed swords? If you're looking for long-bladed, longer-gripped swords in the sixteenth century, then yes, they did have such swords. There are plenty of surviving hand-and-a-half swords from the sixteenth century, possibly indicating that they remained somewhat popular.

I'll list a few from various books, just to give you an idea of the surviving examples. First, from Edged Weapons by Frederick Wilkinson:

- German hand-and-a-half sword, circa 1510, the quillons fitted with rings on each side, overall length 37 5/8 inches. (Wallace Collection)

- Hand-and-a-half sword with a hilt of circa 1520 and a blade probably dating from a century later, overall length 39 3/4 inches. (Wallace Collection)

- German hand-and-a-half sword with ball pommel and central decorated band, first quarter of the sixteenth century. There are single ring guards on each side of the quillons. The blade is flat and double-edged, with three narrow fullers, the central being longer than the ones to either side of it. Length of blade, 38 inches.

From Claude Blair's European & American Arms:

- Hand-and-a-half sword. Running wolf in laton on blade. German, early 16th century. Length: 43 1/2 inches. (Collection of R. T. Gynn, Esq.)

- Hand-and-a-half sword with accessories, traditionally carried by Adam Naf at the Battle of Kappel (October 11, 1531), possibly Swiss, circa 1520-30. Length: 1401 mm. (Schweizerisches Museum, Zurich)

- Hand-and-a-half sword. Blade with the running wolf and crozier mark of Passau and a Gothic "m". German, hilt circa 1525-50, blade 14th or 15th century. This is a good example of an old blade rehilted in a newer style about a century or more after the blade was made. (Kunsthistorishes Museum, Vienna)

- Hand-and-a-half sword. Running wolf inlaid in laton in the blade. South German, circa 1525-50. Length: 1234 mm. (Schweizerisches Museum, Zurich)

- Hand-and-a-half sword. Hilt entirely of steel damascened with gold. Italian, circa 1550, blade earlier. (Kunstistorishes Museum, Vienna)

- Hand-and-a-half sword of Rudolf von Schauenstein. Possibly Swiss, dated 1614. Length: 1259 mm. This one does appear to have a shorter grip, as well as a narrower blade, than most of the rpeceeding examples. (Sweizerisches Museum, Zurich)

From Arms & Armor: The Cleveland Museum by Stephen N. Fliegel, "Checklist of the Severance Collection":

- Hand-and-a-half sword, German, mid-16th century. Overall length: 123.9 cm. Blade length: 92.3 cm. Grip length: 30.5 cm.

- Hand-and-a-half sword, South German, circa 1500. Overall length: 117.5 cm. Blade length: 90.2 cm. Grip length: 21.0 cm.

-Hand-and-a-half sword, German, circa 1540-80. Overall length: 116.8 cm. Blade length: 94.8 cm. Grip length: 21 cm.

And let's not forget the Scottish two-handed claymore and the lowland sword. These were also in use in the 16th century.

Many of the examples above date to the early or mid sixteenth century, but a few date later.

I hope this helped!

Stay safe!

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Fri 23 Feb, 2007 9:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
By longswords, do you mean bastard or hand-and-a-half swords, or are you referring to two-handed swords?


I was refering to long gripped longswords, like type XX and type XVIIIb (And type XVIIIe too) wich usually had longer grips than normal (Around 10-12 inches), not two handed swords, or at least not zweihanders. Thanks for the examples of the poleaxe and the XVI century longswords, i thought they became extinct...

About this types of longswords (Specially long gripped ones), Do you know if during XVI century (Specially later XVI century) those swords were still used by heavy cavalry like Gendarmes or the last Condottieri, or it was totally replaced by rapiers?

Thanks.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 1:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
Do you know if Longswords, axes, maces, warhammers and poleaxes were still used by lancers during the second half of the XVI century, or they were in some way replaced for pistols?

Thanks.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 4:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rodolfo Martínez wrote:
Hello,
Do you know if Longswords, axes, maces, warhammers and poleaxes were still used by lancers during the second half of the XVI century, or they were in some way replaced for pistols?


I'm no expert on the 16th century, but in The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe Sydney Anglo cites at least one renowned (then, but sadly not well known now--few people other than Steve Hick are studying him currently) author, Pietro Monte, who wrote about pollaxe fighting in 1509. From what I've read, however, it almost sounds as if Monte is writing for a weapon no longer used, as with Swetnam writing about the longsword.

Anglo also mentions its use at a deed of arms in 1510 by Henry VIII, but Anglo suggests it wasn't common by that point and wasn't heard of again in any other English deed of arms afterward. He also describes what he calls "a bloodless epilogue" to real deeds of arms when they were used over the barriers and were made with specially-designed shafts intended to be "spectacularly" broken over the barrier itself to act as if the wielder were a mighty man at arms--much like basketball players break the backstops, or whatever those things behind the basket they throw the ball in are called.

As for war, I haven't seen any accounts of them being used after the 15th century, but that's not really surprising: The 15th century was the last of the periods when heavily-armored true men at arms fought principally on foot. Upper-class men at arms in the 16th-century seem either to have been mere officers (by which I mean not front-line combatants) or else cavalry--and pollaxes can't be used on horseback.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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