Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > SRS: Actions of the Lowe Countries III Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Mon 19 Feb, 2007 5:37 pm    Post subject: SRS: Actions of the Lowe Countries III         Reply with quote

Greetings:

I would like to announce that we are holding the "School of the Renaissance Soldier: Actions of the Lowe Countries III" near Sacramento, California April 20-23 2007. We've had two successful schools so far, and look forward to this one being bigger and better than the last.

We have people traveling from as far south as San Diego, north from Seattle, and east from Wisconsin, and perhaps from further afield as well. Join us at our school as either Foote (Pikes and Shotte), Horse, or Camp. Here's the website:

http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 1:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow Gordon, a réaly nice advance on your site. Enjoy the gallery too and not a single percent as much as you guys seem to be doing.
Your horses seem realy into it too being relaxed but fully attentive. VERY nice to see this and quite a welcome change from 'serious' riders in 'sporting' events.
I woul lóve to be able to participate with my horses. They would need a fair bit of extra fencing around their paddock but would REALY lóve it too.
Great!

Peter
View user's profile
Chris Last




Location: Janesville, WI
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Reading list: 8 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 6:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon-

We should have our official participating numbers by early March, which I will send on to Patrick. Its looking better and better for me coming out as well! Now we just have to figure out tent space! Happy

Best-

Chris

" Hang fires are all fun and games untill someone gets their eye poked out... by charging calvary." - J.Shoemaker

Chris Last
GSM-Bristol
http://www.gsmbristol.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter;

Thank you for your complements! Especially on the horses. Wink There are a lot more things I'd like to do with them in an event such as this, but unfortunately what with having a number of rather novice riders and horses, I can't do some of the wilder things that I'd LIKE to do (like full-on cavalry charges at "Full Career"). But it sure would be fun! Big Grin I may well split up the class to facilitate doing some of that sort of thing, though... And if you wish to join us, I think I can find you a finely trained mesteño to ride (belongs to a friend of mine who participates, who is decended from an old Californo family, and they train their horses in the Old Style) so you'd be more than welcome to join us one of these days. Cool

Chris;

I'm really looking forward to your coming out. It will be great having you fellows participate, and we can swap lies about different outlooks on Digges, Barrett and other writers of the day. That will be too cool. And we'll find tent space for you one way or another, no worries. Just bring a cassock and a bedroll! Might get chilly in the evenings. Eek!

Allons!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 9:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Every year Gordon does this,then posts the pictures that are better than the year before and every year I say "damn! why don't I have more time!?". Have a great time with this fellas, it looks like so much fun. Looking very much forward to the after action pics.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,170

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
Every year Gordon does this,then posts the pictures that are better than the year before and every year I say "damn! why don't I have more time!?". Have a great time with this fellas, it looks like so much fun. Looking very much forward to the after action pics.


I know the feeling. Sad But a few thousand miles and an 86 year old Mom I take care of makes trips away difficult to arrange. )

But the nice pics are something to look forward to and maybe Gordon can write some sort of formal article about the event that would give more insider information than an ordinary post. ( Could be a new category of feature articles ? Special events mixed with training information / use of period arms / history / reinactments. Idea )

In any case I may bug Gordon for more in personal e-mails after the even. Wink

And my very best wishes for a good even and good weather. Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!


Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Wed 21 Feb, 2007 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 11:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Gordon. You are so hosiptable you make me blush! Really wish I could and combine a few more visits to some horse people who've invited me.

I've got simple but effective trekking gear. Am used to not taking a tent, just a bit of tarpaulin and a bit of night chill just makes you sleep well Wink

But alas.

Meanwhile I checked with the local huntsman and there are like you said indeed seperate regulatings about muzzle-loaders albeit not necessarily less strict he said. I was to check back with him tonight but just came in and am too knackered. I have to go and get some building material so will go down to the village in the morning.
Checked on the Denix replicas too and no thanks.... Even if the license will prove too much of a hurdle I would still rather covet the 'real' thing.

Have fun with yours and I have no doubt you do Laughing Out Loud

Peter
View user's profile
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Sun 25 Feb, 2007 9:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, Gentlemen, for you kind words. Come on, Allan, break away for just a couple of days! You know you'll love it! Big Grin You too, Jean... Cool (Don't worry, I won't hold you to it, but I know you'd enjoy yourselves.)

Peter, I'll send you some links for arms that may pass Spain's red tape...

Oh, so far we have almost as many folks pre-registered (two months out) as we had total for our first foray two years ago. Not bad! Eek!

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Chris Last




Location: Janesville, WI
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Reading list: 8 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Mon 26 Feb, 2007 8:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon-

You should be seeing a few more of my folks registering ove rthe next week as well. Looks like we'll have a contingent of 7 coming down! Now to see if we can get a bulk discount for airplane tickets... Happy

" Hang fires are all fun and games untill someone gets their eye poked out... by charging calvary." - J.Shoemaker

Chris Last
GSM-Bristol
http://www.gsmbristol.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Mon 26 Feb, 2007 9:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Last wrote:
Gordon-

You should be seeing a few more of my folks registering ove rthe next week as well. Looks like we'll have a contingent of 7 coming down! Now to see if we can get a bulk discount for airplane tickets... Happy


Holy Mackerel! SEVEN? That's great! I wonder if they'll have room in the plane for those 18' pikes, though? Eek!

Big Grin

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Chris Last




Location: Janesville, WI
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Reading list: 8 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Mon 26 Feb, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We'll see if we can work out a telescoping system for our pikes. Happy It does look like we'll have two caliver men to join the ranks though!
" Hang fires are all fun and games untill someone gets their eye poked out... by charging calvary." - J.Shoemaker

Chris Last
GSM-Bristol
http://www.gsmbristol.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Mon 26 Feb, 2007 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris;

Wow, more Caliver-men! Thanks GREAT! The more Shotte, the merrier. ;^D

No worries on the pikes of course. As of now we have 30 pikes in hand without me pulling out the "sequoia gigantea" pikes of renown... Eek! But I'd just as soon not have to drag those down from Washington if I can avoid it. Somehow I suspect we'll have sufficient pikes for a good, solid pike square. Since I'm looking at again mustering about 16-20 Horse, that's a good thing. Cool

Allons!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Mon 26 Feb, 2007 6:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Frye wrote:
As of now we have 30 pikes in hand without me pulling out the "sequoia gigantea" pikes of renown... Eek!


"sequoia gigantea pikes?" Just how bleeding long were those?
View user's profile Send private message
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Mon 26 Feb, 2007 10:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
"sequoia gigantea pikes?" Just how bleeding long were those?


Ah, it's not the length of these that's the issue, it's their dimentions! They're only 16' long, but almost 2" across. (Nominal 2"X2" ash poles trimmed to octagonal cross-section.) And they weigh a ton, as you can imagine. Well, not quite, but they're heavy. I need to weigh one some time to find out. And I still haven't put head nor cheeks on them yet. Eek!

But now we can segue into the rather interesting argument as to the actual dimentions of original pikes. Big Grin

One school of thought is that they were significantly thinner in cross-section, and probably at least the later one's in fact were. Most of the 17th Century woodcuts, for instance, show a fairly slender want being put through it's paces, the 1607 de Gheyn illustrations being an excellent case in point.

Another school of thought has it that pikes were tapered from about 1/3rd of their length forward, and then from that point back to the butt as well, forming a bit of a swell for a balance point. They certainly handle better that way, to be sure! I know that many Boarding Pikes were built this way, but whether they are cut-down Infantry pikes or not hasn't been totally established, at least in my mind. I haven't yet found an original example in its (assumed) original length is the problem. Walhausen certainly mentions tapered pikes (all the way to the butt), but for use by Horse as a substitute for a lance, not necessarily Foote.

I'm of the school that believes that these were both in use, but are more 17th Century developments, and that the pikes in use in the earlier years, when they would have to be used against horses wearing full barding that were trained to crash into pike-squares, were somewhat stouter in build. I believe that the pike drill of Johann van Nassau bears this out, since he tends to have you move around the pike, rather than moving the pike around you, suggesting a somewhat heavier arm than shown in the woodcuts. Also the need for "stout, broad-shouldered lads" for pikemen would suggest a fairly heavy-duty arm, rather than the dainty shafts shown in most 17th Century woodcuts. But it's in the air. I'm till waiting for word one way or another from Graz as to the dimentions of their pikes... Confused

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Daniel Staberg




Location: Gothenburg/Sweden
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 562

PostPosted: Tue 27 Feb, 2007 3:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The extant Swedish 17th Century pikes I've studied were all tapered at both ends, the thickest part was around 3.5-3.6 centimeters in diameter. I sure wouldn't call the shafts dainty ;-) even with the taper. The fact that the top 10-20% of the shaft is reinforced with iron strips would IMHO compensate for most if not all of the weakness created by the taper.
But more research is clearly need on the subject, a problem is that so many of the extant pikes have been shortened to make them easier to store. Still there are complete pikes in Sweden, Switzerland and Austria to name the places i know of and I would be surprised if the Royal Armouries didn't have some in their vast collection.

I tend towards the opinion that when used against heavily armoured cavalry on barded horses the pike was in many ways regarded as a expendable weapon. If you halted the charge the broken pikes could always be replaced by passing forward pikes from the rear ranks. The sheer depth of early 16th Century formations assured that there was an abundance of pikes available to replenish the front ranks that did the actual fighting.
Another question is how many pikes that were actually broken when a Gendarme company charge into a pike square?Each Gendarme would hit 3 or may be even 4 files at the same time so the force of the impact would be distributed over more than one pike.

Cheers
Daniel
View user's profile Send private message
Chris Last




Location: Janesville, WI
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Reading list: 8 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Tue 27 Feb, 2007 8:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Official count looks to be 7 of us, 5 pike - 2 shotte. Airline tickets are being purchased by the end of the week, only $220 per person roundtrip!
" Hang fires are all fun and games untill someone gets their eye poked out... by charging calvary." - J.Shoemaker

Chris Last
GSM-Bristol
http://www.gsmbristol.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Tue 27 Feb, 2007 8:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel;

Thank you, as always, for your input. And as usual, the probable "truth" to matters is somewhere in between the extreme theories posited by the so-called "experts" (including me... Happy )

David Evans, who posts here often, has pointed out the existence of the tapered pikes in the Royal Armouries collection, but as I recall, most if not all have been shortened at some point in their working life, so it becomes hard to tell what was what, and when. But I hadn't been aware of the Swedish pikes that are tapered, that brings a whole new spin on it, since it would seem to be a major increase in the numbers still in existance. Thank you for bringing that to my attention!

A friend of mine who has posted here, Matthew Kelty, did a survey of such European pike collections, or rather tried to, a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, not a great response from the curatorial staffs, but most were of the opinion that the tapered shafts were almost impossible to pin down as to date, being that almost all were shortened. Some day I'd love to do a tour of European collections in person though, with a measuring tape in hand, to do a more "formal" survey. As you point out, LOTS of room for more research!

You're definitely right on the other points, as well. The "push" (or rather "crash") of a company of Gendarmes against a square of say 3-5 thousand pikemen would tend to be absorbed by more than a single rank. Cool And indeed, LOTS of "spare" pikes in the center that could easily be sent forward, whether by passing them up, or just as likely, men moving forward with their fresh pikes to replace the men who were downed in the contact. All the more reason for such huge masses of men in Tercios etc. when combating fully armoured companies of Gendarmes! Eek! Besides, broken pikes make for such handy tent-poles... Wink

Thanks!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Tue 27 Feb, 2007 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Last wrote:
Official count looks to be 7 of us, 5 pike - 2 shotte. Airline tickets are being purchased by the end of the week, only $220 per person roundtrip!


Chris;

That's GREAT! I look forward to meeting you fellows in person, and swapping lies... Big Grin

Allons!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb, 2007 9:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah. I thought they were something like 300-foot-long pikes...
View user's profile Send private message
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb, 2007 7:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Ah. I thought they were something like 300-foot-long pikes...


Ah, you're thinking of the Sequoia Sempervirons pikes... Big Grin

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > SRS: Actions of the Lowe Countries III
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum