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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Sun 18 Feb, 2007 11:24 pm    Post subject: Maile "Sox"...er, I mean "Chausses"         Reply with quote

Found this image at Wikipedia of Villard de Honnecourt, 13thC. showing what appear to be, and Wiki state are, maille knee-length Chausses....essentially long maille sox ! ..." armor for the legs, usually made from chainmail. They could extend to the knee or cover the entire leg." I admit that pre 14th periods are not my main area of research, but I think I would have noticed these before. If correct, they would have had to be tied rather securely above the calf muscle and just below the knee, I would imaginw with lots of soft padding behind........could work I guess.
You can clearly see in the pic that there is a Hauberk under the surcoat and I could'nt imagine the thigh area inbetween being fabric unless he's wearing some sort of padded knee-covers over full-length leggings ! Cuir-boulli then ? I notice there is a definate lack of manufacturers selling maille long sox - chausses ! If they were worn in the 13thC. then mabye no reenactors have reproduced them yet Question
Does anyone know if these are legitimate...or better still. does anyone know of other visual references for these ? Mabye there were quite common and I've just never noticed them before.
( I might just go make myself some nice maille underpants now ! Eek! )

Thanks for your input !



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Knee-length mailee Chausses, Villard de Honnecourt, 13thC..jpg


Merv ....... KOLR
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Feb, 2007 2:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Got 'em!
(Me, in the middle, with, armour...)

Most likely, he is wearing cloth padding over his full length leggs. Or more likely, he has cloth armour breeches on his tighs, and the mail starts just above his knee,with some overlap.
After all, the thighs are already covered by the hauberk, and mail is heavy.
My leggings are made that way.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Steven H




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Feb, 2007 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mail chausses are clearly documented in several places, such as the Maciejowski Bible.

They are mail leggings pointed to an arming doublet (or perhaps a belt). They are typically worn in combination with gamboised chausses, which presumably is what's visible in that image. I think I've seen them worn with a garter just below the knee to distribute the weight.

The only pattern of mail chausses that I recall are thigh length.

A variation on them is a simple flat sheet of mail tied to the shins to protect the front of the shin, like greaves. Which may actually be what is depicted in that drawing, as it appears that the mail is stretched around the sides like it's tied.

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Raymond R





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PostPosted: Mon 19 Feb, 2007 3:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

that is indeed what it looks like. If you'll look closely at his right leg, you'll see where the material makes an "arc" where it is tied around back
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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Feb, 2007 9:54 pm    Post subject: maille chausses         Reply with quote

Raymond R wrote:
that is indeed what it looks like. If you'll look closely at his right leg, you'll see where the material makes an "arc" where it is tied around back


Yes, I see than now......and I have other references showing how they were laced from behind. That would make them a whole lot easier if one wanted reconstruct them.
So, were they all open like this ? Did they have the whole legging type that went up to the knees like Elling wears ? I guess it would be good if there was period art showing maille that stopped at the knee from the rear perspective. As I mentioned this is not my time-main period of study, but I am very interrested nevertheless.
Cheers

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Martin Forrester




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Feb, 2007 4:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does anybody have advice on constructing the maille foot coverings used instead of sabatons with some late 15c full harness? Sabatons make climbing over walls etc trickier and I happen to have a bit of maille handy. Many thanks
Oh, lets just pull out our swords and start whacking at each other, that'll solve everything!
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Feb, 2007 5:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My chauce are laced in the back, as well... It just doesn't show from the front.
most mail chauce would include lacing for at least the lower part of the shin; otherwise, you would get a loose area behind the lower leg, because the hose would need to be big enough for the heel to pass through.

It is quite posible that many artists would simply ignore the lacing, while others would exagerate it to have it show from the front...

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Reinier van Noort





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Feb, 2007 5:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Elling,

Could you perhaps post a picture of how the lacing is fixed to the maille. I seem to be having some trouble with that with my thigh length maille hosen... Especially around the foot appears to be a problem.

I think I've also occasionally seen images similar to the one above interpreted as full maille hosen with a steel/leather kneecap around it. I can't find any examples of that right now, however, and i don't remember where that was and how reliable these sources.

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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Feb, 2007 5:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The lacing is just threaded trough the rings themselves, in the regular shoelace pattern... Of course, you need to have riveted mail for this to work. And, of course, you need to adjust the mail so that it fits snugly around your leg when laced
My hose end at the ancle, and does not cover the foot as such...

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Reinier van Noort





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Feb, 2007 5:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rivetted, right yes, as a man on a budget I am using butted of course... Worried
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Brian Robson





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PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 8:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can I just say hello? I've lurked here for a while and finally come out of the closet to post.

I've been curious about these, as to whether they were actual 'socks' or full mail hosen coming to mid-thigh - only covered by the cuisses.

Many years ago I made a pair of full mail chausses and found that they restricted the mobility of my knee, not allowing it to bend more than 90 degrees. Not a problem unless you try to mount a horse:



It just kind of made sense to me that shortening them to 'socks' would reduce weight, and let you get on a horse more easily. I didn't think that protection would be significantly reduced either with the extra gambeson layer and mail from the hauberk on the thighs and a poleyn on the knee.
Also pics in the Mac Bible show padded cuisses being worn/put on but you never see them worn with mail chausses. Why is that? Are the chausses worn over the cuisses? That would make more sense from a protection point of view. So why then would later artwork show the chausses stop at the knee, displaying the cuisses? Did they just start wearing the cuisses over the chausses, or were the chausses actually shortened to 'socks'?

Anyhoo, here's a pic of me (about 12 years ago) with my 'socks' on, worn over chausses that extended just short of mid-calf (nicely padded for tying off the chausses just under the knee) not sure how well you can see them:



Brian
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Jeff Hughes





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PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

just a thought would it work to weave a 1 inch leather strip on both sides and then lace thru the leather. i would think this would spreed the pressure across the entire lengh and make it possible to use butted mail. i have yet to start my legging and i was thinking this would be the best straping method. also useing a piece of looped leather so it can be attached to a belt. any suggestions
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Feb, 2007 8:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Kingsmirror, written in the 1250s state that

"[the mounted retainer] should have hose of soft linnen canvas, which should reach to the belt, and over these, good mail hose. These should be long enough to be held up by a belt going twice around the waist. Over these he should have good "mail breeches", made of soft linnen as allready described. On top of these he should have "knee protectors" of good iron.
On the upper body, next to the body, he should wear a arming shirt of soft linnen, which should not be longer than mid-thigh. Over this he should have a strong "chest protector" made from good iron covering the abdomen from the nipples to the belt. Outside this, a good shirt of mail, and on top of this a good gambeson, made as mentioned, but without arms."

In this context "soft" probably means finely woven. From this source it appears that the mail hose comes up to at least mid thigh. My guess is that they stop where the arming shirt begins.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Reinier van Noort





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PostPosted: Mon 26 May, 2008 12:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I acquired some sheets of riveted maille to make short chauses of, so I decided to resurrect a thread.

This question is aimed mainly at the people who have, and wear, back-tied chausses to just above the knee; how do you keep them up; I tried tying them around my leg above and below the knee, and then lacing them down, but they keep sagging down over my knee. Should I attach them to a set of padded cuisses (that I don't have yet), or to my regular chausses that I wear under my armour, or is there another trick?

Cheers

R

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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Mon 26 May, 2008 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
The Kingsmirror, written in the 1250s state that

"[the mounted retainer] should have hose of soft linnen canvas, which should reach to the belt, and over these, good mail hose. These should be long enough to be held up by a belt going twice around the waist. Over these he should have good "mail breeches", made of soft linnen as allready described. On top of these he should have "knee protectors" of good iron.
On the upper body, next to the body, he should wear a arming shirt of soft linnen, which should not be longer than mid-thigh. Over this he should have a strong "chest protector" made from good iron covering the abdomen from the nipples to the belt. Outside this, a good shirt of mail, and on top of this a good gambeson, made as mentioned, but without arms."

In this context "soft" probably means finely woven. From this source it appears that the mail hose comes up to at least mid thigh. My guess is that they stop where the arming shirt begins.


Shouldn't the layers go gambeson, maille, "chest protector" (probably CoP)?

M.

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Johan S. Moen




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PostPosted: Tue 27 May, 2008 1:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:

Shouldn't the layers go gambeson, maille, "chest protector" (probably CoP)?

M.


Technically, a gambeson goes over mail, an aketon goes under it. Anyway, the translation isn't perfect. "Arming shirt" in this text refers to "Våpentrøye", a norwegian word for aketon.

As to wearing the CoP over the mail or not, I believe that wearing the CoP under the mail lets the mail move more freely. I do think Elling could chime in on that as well.

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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Tue 27 May, 2008 3:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good point -- I had taken "aketon" to be the early word for "gambeson" -- I'll keep that in mind.

Not fully sure if the CoP is worn over or under -- I'll check into that in a bit myself.

M.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 27 May, 2008 8:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If historical accuracy is not a high priority there are these made for lumberjack competitions available at " the ringlord ":
http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplayproduc...l+Clothing

Close-up:
http://theringlord.com/images/products/Finish...S22532.jpg

Only up to the knees and it's welded stainless and very small fine rings.

Note: I have their maille shirt and it looks real good and even in extra large only weighs 8 pounds. Also their customer service was good.

Anyway, maybe not exactly what you are looking for but thought it was worth mentioning.

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Sean Smith





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PostPosted: Tue 27 May, 2008 7:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not sure if CoP is exactly what was around in 1250. More thinking an "Armoured Surcoat". The "gambeson w/o sleeves" would also explain the funky looking cutouts in the Mac Bible. Possibly the "chest protector" made of iron was similar to the Curie of Leather.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Wed 28 May, 2008 6:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My mail leggings are riveted to a leather strip which is in turn sown on to the padded leggings; thread and metal don't mix well.

As for the sequence of the armour layers, my experience is that it is actually less cumbersome to wear the CoP under the mail; Since the mail does not strecth mutch, a CoP tightened on top of it will tend to snag and restrict mobility.

In the end of the day, its a question of personal taste. In pictoral evidence, a CoP under the mail will not show in any case...

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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