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Jean Henri Chandler




Location: New Orleans
Joined: 20 Nov 2006

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PostPosted: Fri 09 Feb, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject: I love this Sikh fencing         Reply with quote

This seems to be reviving much as WMA is... this is a sport version called Gatka, analagous to Kendo or Jogo Du Pao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL00IfG5p6U&am...mp;search=

We don't see much about the Indian martial arts in the West but I think they are fascinating.

I think the saber (shamshir? tulwar?) and buckler style is really interesting and, while this is somewhat sportified, you can see that graceful and elegant as it is, it's founded in a real, deadly martial art. I think the original form is called kalaripayattu.

J

System D'Armes Historical European fencing in New Orleans

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Allan Senefelder
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Location: Upstate NY
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Feb, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean, thanks for posting this it was fascinating to watch! There seems to be a couple more vids of this on youtube that i'm going to check out tonight. I've alwasy been a fan of Indo Persian arms and armour and it was pretty nifty getting to see some of thier martial arts even in a sportified form in action. Watch the two older fellas at the end and the commeradery displayed by them was great!
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Feb, 2007 8:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have moved this from the Historic Arms Talk forum. Why? Because this topic is about martial arts. More specifically, it's a link to another site rather than a start of a discussion. Either way, this topic is about the use of weapons, not the discussion of the actual weapons themselves.

Jean Henri Chandler-
I've been moving many of your topics lately. Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with our forum and the way it is structured. Should you have any questions about this, please send me a private message about it.

Thank you.

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Feb, 2007 8:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fascinating! Thanks for the tip! The stick fighting early in the clip is the most impressive to me. They're actually trying to hit each other (as opposed to aiming for the opponent's sword or buckler, as in the saber fighting) and there's no obvious element of choreography or ritual as in the final images. Some of the exchanges look like sporting "tag," but in general the combatants don't seem to be risking themselves in order to "score" against their opponents. I know thrusting is extremely dangerous without masks, but I'd be curious to see them integrate thrusting into that straight blade work. The constant motion and feints are especially interesting. I notice that they lead almost exclusively with the sword foot. I wonder if that's by training, custom or instinct.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Fri 09 Feb, 2007 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Fri 09 Feb, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for posting that. I've seen a few of these Gatka videos on the internet over the last few months. The thing I'm wondering about is that although gatka itself is a uniquely Sikh martial art, to what extent was it influenced by Mughul and by extension other Turco-Persian martial traditions.

Or to put it another way, did Gatka evolve from Mughul, Persian and Turkish styles of fighting with the sabre? Would the techniques used by a modern Gatka practitioner be similar to those used by Ottoman, Safavid and Mughul warriors?
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Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Feb, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Being an afficionado of I.33 I was surprised how exposed they were leaving their arms in the stick fighting. I note that in the saber section (which looked to me to be unchoreographed but with neither party trying terribly hard to hit the other) they were covering the arm with the buckler a lot more and even using Underarm, the first guard of I.33.

I'm pretty sure the head was off limits. I didn't see a single head strike and they were cutting low and exposing the head repeatedly.

Cheers
Stephen

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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Chris Lampe




Location: United States
Joined: 07 Mar 2005

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PostPosted: Fri 09 Feb, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike Stilwell, who used to post frequently at SFI, posted some links to some videos of himself doing Gatka. It was very interesting stuff. Very fast moving!
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Fabrice Cognot
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Location: Dijon
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 5:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I had the chance to be introduced to Gatka by Mike Stilwell in 2004 at our annual HEMAC event in Dijon - (and very much enjoyed watching his group and Guru performing at the first Schola Gladiatoria Gun Powder Mills even), and every time I have the opportunity I really enjoy playing Gatka with him. You work up a sweat in no time, and as Steve said the differences with other, Western, sword and buckler sources are mind opening (and challenging) - though you quickly get used to it.

head strikes can appear rare, but there is a reason (two, actually) :
- the buckler can move realy quickly to cover the head
- the sheer thickness of cloth Sikh wear on their heads would render it almost inefficient.

The 'saber' (tulwar, actually) part was not choreographed - most probably because they were using sharps, and thus going at it with a bit of caution.

Gatka, according to Mike - but there are websites out there who will certainly give you more accurate information - was a game of sticks designed to make the Sikh warrior as efficient as possible in the shortest possible time.

I hope Mike will be able to perform a Gatka demonstration after showing the few (but beautiful) tulwars we have in the museum this year in Dijon for the HEMAC event. Though Gatka uses a lot of different weapons.

Fab

PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
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Jean Henri Chandler




Location: New Orleans
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 9:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fabrice Cognot wrote:
I had the chance to be introduced to Gatka by Mike Stilwell in 2004 at our annual HEMAC event in Dijon - (and very much enjoyed watching his group and Guru performing at the first Schola Gladiatoria Gun Powder Mills even), and every time I have the opportunity I really enjoy playing Gatka with him. You work up a sweat in no time, and as Steve said the differences with other, Western, sword and buckler sources are mind opening (and challenging) - though you quickly get used to it.

head strikes can appear rare, but there is a reason (two, actually) :
- the buckler can move realy quickly to cover the head
- the sheer thickness of cloth Sikh wear on their heads would render it almost inefficient.

The 'saber' (tulwar, actually) part was not choreographed - most probably because they were using sharps, and thus going at it with a bit of caution.

Gatka, according to Mike - but there are websites out there who will certainly give you more accurate information - was a game of sticks designed to make the Sikh warrior as efficient as possible in the shortest possible time.

I hope Mike will be able to perform a Gatka demonstration after showing the few (but beautiful) tulwars we have in the museum this year in Dijon for the HEMAC event. Though Gatka uses a lot of different weapons.

Fab


When is the Dijon event held?

J

System D'Armes Historical European fencing in New Orleans

Essays on Hroarr

Introducing the Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic
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Allen Reed




Location: Northwest, IL
Joined: 19 Apr 2004

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Arabic Sources for Sword and Buckler?         Reply with quote

Stephen Hand wrote:
Being an afficionado of I.33 I was surprised how exposed they were leaving their arms in the stick fighting. I note that in the saber section (which looked to me to be unchoreographed but with neither party trying terribly hard to hit the other) they were covering the arm with the buckler a lot more and even using Underarm, the first guard of I.33.

I'm pretty sure the head was off limits. I didn't see a single head strike and they were cutting low and exposing the head repeatedly.

Cheers
Stephen


Stepehn,

I was tlaking to some friends about I.33 the other day and they mentioned Arabic fighting texts called Faris books that include use of the sword and buckler.

Do you know anything about these texts?

Allen
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Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 4:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Allen,

I've heard that there's material out there, but I've not seen it.

Cheers
Stephen

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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Fabrice Cognot
Industry Professional



Location: Dijon
Joined: 29 Sep 2004

Posts: 354

PostPosted: Mon 19 Feb, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
When is the Dijon event held?

J


Oops - I must have skipped this post, sorry....

Look in my sig for an answer and click on the link
Happy

Cheers

Fab

PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
Maker of high quality historical-inspired pieces.
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