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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > What kind of knight is this? Reply to topic
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Guilherme Dias Ferreira S




Location: Brazil
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 4:30 pm    Post subject: What kind of knight is this?         Reply with quote

Anyone could say what kind a knight is this?( And his country and the decade of the 16th or 17th century): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dresden-Zw...mor.02.JPG
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Early to mid 16th century Maximillian armour for man and horse from the looks of it. Nationality of the original owner, could be from almost anywhere in Europe, as armour of this style was worn/used all around the continent.
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Edward Hitchens




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 4:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

He could be German (or Italian?). Part of the description says "16th or 17th century armour and weapons." I might even push it back to late-15th, although 16th century sounds reasonable. 17th century? I think that's pushing it.
"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2007 4:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd second the guess for a 16th-century provenance. It's because of 1) the shape of the tassets, though it's not very visible in the picture and 2) the upper-arm defenses, since I've never seen a fully-articulated pauldron (or was it actually the rerebrace?) extending tha tfar down on 15th-century armors. Being an inexperienced observer, though, I suspect I may be wrong about some things and I'd greatly appreciate any corrections.
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Guilherme Dias Ferreira S




Location: Brazil
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jan, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's possible that this knight would be a famiglia ducale?
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jan, 2007 9:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This armour has elements of 1520 to 1530 design in many pieces. One can see direct off-shoots of earlier Maximillian fluting and design in the upper legs and sabatons, and in the arms/ elbow cops and gauntlets. The pauldrons being fully articulated points to a slightly later date of manufacture, like 1540-1560 at the latest. Those type of mitten gauntlets fell out of use around that time, I believe. The breastplate does not show Maximillian styling anymore, nor do the tassets or armet/ close helm, although the breastplate and helm still have some mild fluting. The gorget has elements of late period Maximillian style. The suit really seems to be a German product, based upon the central ridged, blocky design of the breastplate and tassets. It is obvious that a fair amount of expert work went into the manufacture. The roped edging is quite magnificent, as is the embossing. It would seem to be a mid/ later period suit which was executed with some artistic license towards the earlier Maximillian style. Maybe the owner just longed for some of the flavor of the "old days". Or, maybe the armourers responsible for this suit actually apprenticed as youngsters in the Maximillian period, and their roots are just showing through at a "much" later date. My thoughts anyway, correct me if I'm wrong...
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2007 2:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Isn't it possible that the suit itself has been mixed and matched from components of several different armors like many other pieces on display? This may explain those discrepancies just as well.

As for who the owner was, he certainly could have been Milanese and a famiglia, but we can't know for sure unless we have a document attesting to its ownership, especially if the armor has indeed been pieced together from several different suits.

(And in case you're writing fiction like I sometimes am, I believe it can certainly work as the armor of a Milanese man-at-arms at around that period.)
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2007 4:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette said "Isn't it possible that the suit itself has been mixed and matched from components of several different armors like many other pieces on display"

Lafayette, the term used for this in the collecting community is "composite" and is a practice that goes back to the 19th century at least , combining elements from different harness's that look similar to make full suits to satisfy the rising interest in things medieval in the 19th century. Yes that is quite certainly a possibility, as you mentioned theres more than a few suits in museums today that are of this nature.
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Guilherme Dias Ferreira S




Location: Brazil
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Jan, 2007 9:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Compare this knight with these gendarmes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gendarmes.jpg
It seems to me that the first was better armoured (specially the horse barding) than the regular gendarme. This doesn't go against who claim that the gendarmes were the best and heaviest heavy cavalry of their time?
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Gordon Frye




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PostPosted: Wed 10 Jan, 2007 10:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guilherme Dias Ferreira S wrote:
Compare this knight with these gendarmes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gendarmes.jpg
It seems to me that the first was better armoured (specially the horse barding) than the regular gendarme. This doesn't go against who claim that the gendarmes were the best and heaviest heavy cavalry of their time?


Ummm... How so? They and their horses look to be fairly equally well armoured to me. Besides, a single magnificent garniture does not imply that all in the owner's retinue were as well equipped.

Cheers,

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Jan, 2007 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And of course, even though the gendarmes in general were the best equipped, the suits of armor were still individually made and would have differed in details of coverage and effectiveness.
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 12:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interestingly, there are elements in the fluting and roping which support the possibility of a homogeneous suit, and barding. Look at the repeating pattern in the fluting, for example. It is clearly visible on the helm, breastplate, and barding. The vambraces are the only portion of the arm defences which may exhibit this pattern. The articulated pauldrons, elbow cops, cuisses, knee cops, and gauntlets don't seem to follow it per se, but one would need to see these elements in person to determine if that was part of the original design criterium or not, and if materials and methods of manufacture are similar. The full-size photo just does not show enough information to ascertain this. Oddly enough, the roping on the pauldrons, tassets, cuisses and other various portions of the harness and barding seem to match. Maybe the similarity in period manufacturing techniques would account for that happening, but it does lend credence to the possibility of a homogeneous harness. A bit of "retro" artistic license in the original design concept of the armour might account for the Maximillian influences in what seems to be a suit of later manufacture. Close-ups and shots at various angles would help, if someone knows of any. My guess is that at minimum the helm, gorget, cuirass/ tassets, and barding are homogeneous. They all have correctly matching period armour criteria. The arms and leg defences are possibles upon further inspection, but the gauntlets seem suspect, even though they are seemingly a perfect fit with specific portions of the arm defences...
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Jan, 2007 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah. I'd clearly second the request for close-up photographs if anyone could provide us with some.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 10:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

According to "Fine Arms & Armor" a book on the Dresden Museums collection in which these two armours reside - "Bright, fluted Field Armour for man and horse. Horse's armour: South German, ca1515; man's armour by Jorge Seuenhofer, pre-1558." Doesn't tell you who owned it but it tells you where it came from and in the case of the man's armour who made it so its not a composite set.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And heres the who it belonged to again from "Fine Arms & Armor". Regarding the man's armour " On a vertical band on the breast appears the eleven-part Arms of Saxony. In its decoration this armour represents a transitional stage between fluted and later types. It was given to the Elector August by Archduke Ferdinand in 1558." So this first belonged to Ferdinand and he then gifted it to August.

On the horse armour "The coat of arms of the Medici which recures on the etched bands, a capital "M" with the device SEMPER SUAVE, permits the conclusion that the horse-armour was originally made for Giuliano Medici, Duke of Nemours."
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Jeff Richardson




Location: Medford Oregon
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
I'd second the guess for a 16th-century provenance. It's because of 1) the shape of the tassets, though it's not very visible in the picture and 2) the upper-arm defenses, since I've never seen a fully-articulated pauldron (or was it actually the rerebrace?) extending tha tfar down on 15th-century armors. Being an inexperienced observer, though, I suspect I may be wrong about some things and I'd greatly appreciate any corrections.


In later period armor, generally the rerebrace (upper arm) has a rotating cuff and the Shoulder Pauldron has articulated lames which at the bottom are locked into the rerebrace upper cuff with a strap. This allows full rotation of the elbow and the ability to lift the arm allowing the shoulder to move. Hard to tell from the picture provided but I would imagine that that is what is being done here.

Jeff Richardson
Academia Duelatoria
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan, thank you for your efforts in finding the relevant information. So it's one of the Seusenhofer clan! Bummer when you're respected in your line of work, make a magnificent one-off product for a client, and then later discover it was "gifted" away like some common trinket, lol. Maybe it didn't fit the intended owner too well? Steel is just not very forgiving when it comes to waist size... Laughing Out Loud

Also, does anyone think that there may be a history between the barding and harness? I just found it somewhat odd that similarities exist between the triple banded pattern on the barding and on portions of the armour, specifically on the helm, breastplate, and vambrace. Happenstance? The patterns are not identical, yet they are uncannily alike. It almost seems like the owner purchased the used barding first, and had the harness commisioned, so as to match. But that may just be due to the poor quality of the full-size photo...
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Torsten, the book doesn't mention if the two armours were associated during thier working lifetime or not so its open to speculation. It certainly is possible, given the cirucmstance of the man's armour being bought and owned by one person and then later gifted to another that these two armours were used together. The text mentions that the saddle with the horse armour is south German and dates to the 1530's.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 4:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah. Well. And I doubt the armorer would have minded that much to see his armor being used as an important gift of state. it's a great deal more prestigious than ordinary gifts, you see.
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