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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: One handed sword with heater shield manuals?         Reply with quote

While I33 has given me one handed thrusting swords with buckler info, and our own articles have taught me a bit of the basics behind two handed weapons, I'm not sure where I could go to learn a bit about the above mentioned fighting style. I was wondering if you all had any suggestions?

M.
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: One handed sword with heater shield manuals?         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
While I33 has given me one handed thrusting swords with buckler info, and our own articles have taught me a bit of the basics behind two handed weapons, I'm not sure where I could go to learn a bit about the above mentioned fighting style. I was wondering if you all had any suggestions?

M.


Er, those are cutting swords. Also, you can get the book on it from Hand and Wagner, and learn it with your friends.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: One handed sword with heater shield manuals?         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
. Also, you can get the book on it from Hand and Wagner, and learn it with your friends.


Actually, Hand and Wagner's book is an interpretation of I.33, so it is technically sword and buckler, not sword and heater shield (not that you can't apply the broad concepts).

Unfortunately, there are no known surviving historical documents that go into detail about sword and shield fighting. What we have are bits of evidence that people have extrapolated from various sources. If you pick up the books SPADA and SPADA II, you'll find articles written by Stephen Hand that show his research on how sword and round shields were likely used, and some bits of information that bleed over into heater shields (since they wouldn' t be a completely alien system, after all).

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have moved this topic to the Off-topic Talk forum.

Please note the description for this forum:

"Discussions of general history and other miscellaneous topics relating to arms and armour that do not specifically fit our other forums"

Thank you.

Happy

ChadA

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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: One handed sword with heater shield manuals?         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
M. Eversberg II wrote:
While I33 has given me one handed thrusting swords with buckler info, and our own articles have taught me a bit of the basics behind two handed weapons, I'm not sure where I could go to learn a bit about the above mentioned fighting style. I was wondering if you all had any suggestions?

M.


Er, those are cutting swords. Also, you can get the book on it from Hand and Wagner, and learn it with your friends.


Well, I scanned through it, and though it was in german I was able to discern from pictures several of what I thought where thrusting techniques. I'll give it another go sometime, and evaporate my misconceptions.

My apologies for posing in the wrong forum, I felt this had something to do with historical arms, but didn't deviate enough.

As to no records surviving, that's a shame. I will give SPADA and SPADA II a look; is it a book or a web site? It sounds familiar.

M.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2006 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: One handed sword with heater shield manuals?         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
My apologies for posing in the wrong forum, I felt this had something to do with historical arms, but didn't deviate enough.



No apologies are necessary. I felt it was off-topic since you weren't discussing weapons so much as their use and manuals on their use. So while it has to do with historic arms, the discussion is not about historic arms, hence it's off-topic.

Happy

ChadA

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Stephen Hand




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PostPosted: Sat 09 Dec, 2006 2:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

Spada is a periodic collection of refereed papers on European historical swords and swordsmanship. To date there have been two volumes. They are available from Chivalry Bookshelf. In the first edition I published a paper on the surviving material showing the use of large shields. I demonstrated how the system described in 15th century German fechtbucher for use with duelling shields was the same as that described with very different shields in 16th century Italian manuals and that surviving artwork of medieval sword and shield combat fits this system very well. Therefore, the evidence suggests that medieval sword and shield combat was at least broadly like that described in later works.

In Spada II I followed on from that paper discussing several different aspects of sword and shield use. I wrote a separate paper updating my earlier book (with my student Paul Wagner) analysing the I.33 sword and buckler system, Medieval Sword and Shield (also available from Chivalry Bookshelf). The paper includes new research and frankly, some admissions that we got some things wrong in the book. Research is like that.

The swords used in the I.33 system are pretty stock standard medieval arming swords. The system uses a lot of thrusting, as do the later sword and shield systems. Thrusts are efficient attacks. There are also a lot of cuts.

As to what to do with a heater shield, it depends to an extent on how large it is. A large heater shield should be used as described in the Spada papers. The smaller your heater shield is, the more elements of the I.33 system you should look at using. Mind you, even small heaters resemble the Italian rotella in size and strap arrangement (if not in shape) and the rotella was used in the manner described in the Spada papers, not like a buckler at all.

Oh, and if you are allowed to do them correctly (many groups have silly rules that disallow aspects of historical practice), the historical systems go through made up modern systems like a dose of salts. This is of course to be expected as they were developed by people who died if they got it wrong, not by a bunch of people enjoying a pleasant afternoon playing at swordfighting.

I hope this helps.

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sat 09 Dec, 2006 5:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Hand wrote:
Spada is a periodic collection of refereed papers on European historical swords and swordsmanship. To date there have been two volumes. They are available from Chivalry Bookshelf. In the first edition I published a paper on the surviving material showing the use of large shields. I demonstrated how the system described in 15th century German fechtbucher for use with duelling shields was the same as that described with very different shields in 16th century Italian manuals and that surviving artwork of medieval sword and shield combat fits this system very well. Therefore, the evidence suggests that medieval sword and shield combat was at least broadly like that described in later works.


I haven't read the books since I haven't managed to save enough money to buy them (and am still working towards that goal), but this statement makes me curious. Does this mean that you advise extrapolating from the 16th-century styles of sword and round target? It seems the most logical choice to me at the moment because the rodela seemed to be the piece of 16th-century equipment that bore the closest resemblance to the characteristics of the medieval shield.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sat 09 Dec, 2006 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I looked up rodela and found a round, buckleresque shield -- I'm guessing a "heater" shield isn't the small V shaped shield with a flat top?

M.
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R Looije




Location: Waddinxveen, Holland
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Dec, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
I looked up rodela and found a round, buckleresque shield -- I'm guessing a "heater" shield isn't the small V shaped shield with a flat top?

M.


As far as I know it is, it was named after the shape of old-fashioned hand irons, if I'm not mistaken. Of course the term was adopted in more modern times Wink

"Ik worstel en kom boven" (I struggle and prevail) - Motto for Zeeland, Holland
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Stephen Hand




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PostPosted: Sat 09 Dec, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Does this mean that you advise extrapolating from the 16th-century styles of sword and round target? It seems the most logical choice to me at the moment because the rodela seemed to be the piece of 16th-century equipment that bore the closest resemblance to the characteristics of the medieval shield.


All the available material we have on large shields, both the German 6' x 2' duelling shields and the roughly 2' round Italian rotella describes the shields being used in near identical fashion, a fashion very different to that I have seen modern re-enactors using. The same guards and in some cases specific techniques are illustrated with earlier shields, medieval and in fact ancient shields (with some differences relating to shield morphology - I discuss this in the paper in Spada II). When you fight in the style described in the 15th/16th century sources, fights match those described in sagas and chansons, something which sword and sheld fights never did when I used the "make it up as you go along" system. Therefore all the evidence we have suggests that the same broad style was used with earlier shields as is recorded as being used with 15/16th century shields. Were the styles identical? almost certainly not, but were they broadly similar? almost certainly yes.

Interestingly, beyond about a two foot diameter, the size of the shield doesn't seem to make much difference to how it is best used. The curve of the shield makes a world of difference, deeply curved kite shields having to be used significantly differently to flat or shallowly curved ones.

Oh, and the Rotella is held with an arm strap and a hand grip or strap. It is not held buckler style with a single central grip.

Cheers
Stephen

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sun 10 Dec, 2006 3:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Hand wrote:
Oh, and the Rotella is held with an arm strap and a hand grip or strap. It is not held buckler style with a single central grip.


That's the point. I saw some of the more detailed illustrations and the better modern reconstructions, and I couldn't help but think "Man, this is a shield, not a buckler!"

And thank you for the confirmation. At least now we'll have something to work on while we save the cash to buy those SPADA editions!

- Lay
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R Looije




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PostPosted: Sun 10 Dec, 2006 7:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just found this article, it may not be much, but at least it's a start for you Happy
http://www.arma-ogden.org/content/view/9/30/

"Ik worstel en kom boven" (I struggle and prevail) - Motto for Zeeland, Holland
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sun 10 Dec, 2006 8:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was on ebay and found a descent looking shield made of wood at a low cost, rather deeply curved.

The shield is here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem...1&rd=1

It's low cost, and I wouldn't miss it if it got beaten up badly. Don't have a shield press of my own (which is why my kite shield is flat!) so this looks like a good option. It was mentioned above the curve makes a great difference in its use, and the ebay link has a picture of it's curve.

M.
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