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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 11:25 am    Post subject: Show me a glaive....         Reply with quote

I need to find a photo of an original, contemporary depiction or accurate modern repro of a glaive/vouge of ca. 1461. I've seen A&A's and Arma Bohemia's, and I have Waldman and Blood Red Roses. Most of what I'm seeing is late 15th c., but I'm wanting to reproduce something that could have been at Towton. Advice is welcome!

Thanks!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean, I have no idea of the time period of this one, and don't have access to my reference stuff at the moment but here's a glaive...
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 11:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Russ. I'm guessing that one is ca. 1500-1550. Ideally, I'd like to see an original or contemp. artwork securely dated to the period of Towton. Judging from the lack of good illustration in Blood Red Roses, I'm guessing that there just isn't much out there. The Arma Bohemia weapon shown below is exactly what I have in mind, but I don't have any way to date that design or judge its accuracy. It looks good, but I'd like to know more about the originals that inspired it. Judging from the clothing of the man holding it, I'd guess it's second half of the 15th. c.--exactly the period I'm looking at. Can anybody here suggest a date based on the clothing (understanding that the clothing doesn't necessarily match the weapon)?


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Sean, I have no idea of the time period of this one, and don't have access to my reference stuff at the moment but here's a glaive...


I know nothing about glaives but I have this exact photo in one of my books, and it says Italian, circa 1540, length 2830mm, blade width 91mm. The text also says "it's nearly impossible to determine the date according to the shape [of this kind of weapons]", but it's not a text that I trust too much...

So yes, good guess Sean Happy

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Vincent
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The etching, socket shape and "node" between socket and blade tipped me toward the later date on that Italian glaive. Although it's hard to imagine that etching had to be invented, we don't see much etching before this period. It became common in 16th century, especially as polearms of this type were relegated to ceremonial duty So, one can get some idea of date simply by the presence of etching. Nodes--the little ball-shaped things between socket and blade--are more common on later polearms. Basically, the more elaborate the decoration, the later the polearm, although that rule of thumb breaks down on 15th. c poleaxes.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Addison C. de Lisle




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A&A made a custom glaivea while ago that looks like exactly what you're interested in; and the text says it's from the same time period.
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Gordon Clark




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of the "sources" for my custom A&A glaive (not the one pictured above, but this one below) was this
http://gallery.the-exiles.org/view_photo.php?...amp;id=aaj

The text attributes it as a "scene from Froissart" and dates it as 1440-1460.
There are several glaives depicted, and it is here that I got the sword like guard idea.

Gordon



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Gordon Clark




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 4:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And here is Lutel's offering (listed as late 15th century). Looks very similar to the one you have posted above.

Gordon



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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Nov, 2006 2:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi............The one that Russ has posted above with the blue background I have on file markrd as " Ītalian, 1540 " ...I dont have any other info on it. I had a sort through my files and found one piece of interresting art c.1354, which I have attached.
I wish I had more information....perhaps that book....
" Hafted Weapons in Medieval and Renaissance Europe: The Evolution of European Staff Weapons between 1200 and 1650 " .... (History of Warfare) by John Waldman (Hardcover - Jun 2005) might be more helpful......
but at around $185 new, you could get yourself a mighty nice sharp & pointy Glaive for that much !! Eek!



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Merv ....... KOLR
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Nov, 2006 3:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Merv Cannon wrote:
Hi............The one that Russ has posted above with the blue background I have on file markrd as " Ītalian, 1540 " ...I dont have any other info on it.


That image appears in the following book and is attached to this post. Included are two other polearms shown in the book along with the accompanying German text. Note that the dates are circa 1540-1550 for each: much later than what Sean is seeking.


Click for further info



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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Nov, 2006 6:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This gives me what I need. Thanks, folks! It drives me crazy that the National Library of France has taken down their Froissart illustrations. They had everything in high res, and it was a fantastic resource. Does anybody know of another source--print or digital--for the illustrations?
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Nov, 2006 6:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah come to think of it, I believe that picture I have originally came from Claudios page (I tried to verify but could not get to his page) so the Italian provenance would have made sense from that context alone. Here's another one, also not what Sean is looking for... but I do like posting pictures of glaives... Happy
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D. Bell




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Nov, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you haven't already, have a look at the last picture in the Battle of Agincourt article, 'A scene from Vigiles de Charles VII, fifteenth century'. One of the men there is clearly holding a glaive which may be of interest to you.
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