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Justin Pasternak




Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts
Joined: 17 Sep 2006

Posts: 174

PostPosted: Thu 23 Nov, 2006 5:54 pm    Post subject: War Whip         Reply with quote

Was there any form of whip used for warfare? And if their was could the whip have been made out of metal and used in the same manner as a flail?
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Eric Allen




Location: Texas
Joined: 04 Feb 2006

Posts: 207

PostPosted: Thu 23 Nov, 2006 8:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not going to say "impossible," or "never happened," but I will say "Highly unlikely," in Western Europe, at least.

Most whips aren't and weren't used for hitting things so much as creating a loud noise (to get livestock to move, for example). Whips have been used to hit, mostly as punishment tools (in which case, the "target" is stationary and can't fight back).

The problem with using one is combat, is that for a whip hit to hurt, it has to be at the proper range (so it can snap), and its potential damage can be mitigated by either moving out of range or, better yet, into it. Try this: Next time someone tries to "rat-tail" you with a wet towel, step into it--the towel will smack harmelessly against your thigh. If nullified in this manner, the whip can then be grabbed, and suddenly become a liability for the wielder.

A whip works by snapping the tip of a flexible cord so that it instantaneously breaks the sound barrier (the pop or crack you get from a well-executed whip-strike is a mini sonic boom). That's why whips are generally made of light and flexible materiels, like braided leather. A metal whip would have to be somehow made thin, light and flexible to actually crack.
If the whip isn't cracking, you're not so much whipping or lashing your target as flogging it, and you might as well be using a flail anyway.

Just my $0.02
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Nick Trueman





Joined: 27 Mar 2006

Posts: 246

PostPosted: Thu 23 Nov, 2006 8:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi

Many nomadic peoples used whips instead of spurs but of coarse not as a weapon. Some of these examples have quite ornate wooden handles ( magyar/khazar ). Another intersting weapon is the khazar flight mace/flail, simply a wooden handle with a egg shaped mace head attached by leather thonging. Made of bone, bronze, steel there exact use is not known? maybe they were thrown we dont know.

N



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John Cooksey




Location: NW Ark
Joined: 15 Nov 2003

Posts: 291

PostPosted: Thu 23 Nov, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As a weapon for war, the whip would be fairly ineffective. It has been used for informal dueling, however.
Braided leather lariats/lassos were used by some of the steppe nomads, tho.

I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Nov, 2006 9:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the Chinese used metal whip-like weapons ? But then the Chinese were very inventive creating a lot of weird weapons some more practical than others and their use may have varied from very common to exotic oddities.

So I would look for sources about Chinese weapons.

Not my area of expertise though. ( Assuming I have an AREA. Wink )

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Hugo Voisine





Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Nov, 2006 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You should ask to Lancelot Chan for chinese weapons. Happy
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Michael Olsen





Joined: 28 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Nov, 2006 10:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

According to Wikipedia (not exactly land of the accurate information, I know) a weapon known as the Urumi was used in South India, being essentially a "sword made of flexible steel, sharp enough to cut into flesh, but flexible enough to be rolled into a tight coil." Have a picture.
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Eric Allen




Location: Texas
Joined: 04 Feb 2006

Posts: 207

PostPosted: Sat 25 Nov, 2006 12:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Olsen wrote:
According to Wikipedia (not exactly land of the accurate information, I know) a weapon known as the Urumi was used in South India, being essentially a "sword made of flexible steel, sharp enough to cut into flesh, but flexible enough to be rolled into a tight coil." Have a picture.


I seem to have heard of those before.
That's a trickey one. Its sort of like a sword, not entirely a whip, and not exactly a flail. Kind of a class all its own. Reminds me a bit of a nasty metallic cat-o-nine-tails. Probably the closest to an effective "war whip" I can think of.
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Justin Pasternak




Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts
Joined: 17 Sep 2006

Posts: 174

PostPosted: Sat 25 Nov, 2006 9:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for all your help on this topic!!!
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Danny Grigg





Joined: 17 Sep 2004

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Posts: 337

PostPosted: Sat 25 Nov, 2006 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

See attached pics & links regarding some Chinese chain / whip-like weapons

http://www.shaolin-wushu.de/en/en_shop/detail/kette_detail.htm

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=267
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=284

Danny



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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Sun 26 Nov, 2006 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmmm. The oriental chain is a disguise of the ball on a chain to a handle. I have no doubt I would prefer the latter riding my horse.
Western martial art seem to have been pragmatic and functional in the absolute.
Oriental weaponry was also and to a considerable effect influanced by the use of objects that legaly were not arms.

Differences is social organisation have a large effect on weaponry. In India p.a. the metal bow was quite abundant one time. Although not overly efficient in respect to the composit recurve, it could be hung to the wall strung, thus ready for use.
Also iron was (is) abundant in India.
I guess the spring sword has to be seen in the same light and not at all in respect to the battle field.

HC
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