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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 1:14 pm    Post subject: A 14th Cent. Kit with German influence         Reply with quote

Dear arms&armour interested folks,

after now nearly owning 2 swords of the 14th cent. (Albion Crecy and Sherriff) I would like to go with some armour.

It should be affordable and make a nice kit which is in the range of what could be worn in the formerly mentioned time frame.

I would like to start with a Gambeson kind of thing, which designs would actually fit? Probably a design with vertcally quilted lines, what about fastening? What would be a reasonably priced provider in Europe?

Second the real armour. The Idea is a haubergon and a bascinet (detachable clap visor) with aventail, splinted legs (hope to get some picture to post in the near future) with knee cops, hourglass gauntlets.

Now I fond some interesting looking arm defences, would these be possible:
http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/D%20Ruce%2023%20a.jpg

http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/D%20Ruce%2023%20c.jpg

What do you think of my kit idea?
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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
Joined: 27 Dec 2005

Posts: 309

PostPosted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Felix,

The initial basis of your kit seems pretty sound, but there was a huge amount of development in the style and technology of armour in 14th century Europe so the first thing I would do is pick a country and a timeframe of 20 years or so because these choices will drastically affect the appropriateness of the armour you pick. It would also help to give some thought to the class of armour you wish to represent, the armour worn by a wealthy lord will be quite different to that worn by a poor knight or a man at arms.

If you havn't already I urge you to get hold of a copy of Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight by David Edge and John Miles Paddock. It is an excellent starting point to get a feel for the evolution of European armour.

I was going to direct you to http://www.lanser.dk/, and their excellent collection of effigies but their site is down right now.

I think the Crecy and Sherrif would place you somewhere in the 1340s, so for basic armour of that period I would go with the following:

- linen shirt and braies, wool hose, and leather ankle-high turnshoes since you can't ignore the foundations.

- Linen canvas aketon padded either with raw wool or tow, or made from a few layers of linen and closed at the front with a single spiral lace. This doesn't need to be hugely thick and rigid, it's just padding for under your armour to prevent chafing. This should reach to mid-thigh.

- Hauberk reaching to mid-thigh, with either full or elbow length sleeves.

- Coat of plates of some style. Check out Armour From the Battle of Wisby for info on these. Note that the most frequently reproduced coat of plates from the Wisby finds is also one of the least common types found if I recall correctly, this can make consulting google for information a bit misleading.

For leg armour I would go with either splinted leather or multi-layer linen cuisses which you could also splint. Single-piece knee cops and splinted greaves would be appropriate. Gutter-shaped steel greaves wouldn't be out of the question.

Those arms you linked to wouldn't be too bad either. Single-piece elbows and gutter shaped vambraces and rerebraces or splinted leather would be also be good. Rondels at the elbow and armpits wouldn't be out of place.

A klappviser bascinet seems a little late for that style of kit, I'd go with either an open-faced bascinet, a greathelm (optionally over the bascinet), or a kettle-hat.

Good luck, accumulating a set of armour is a lot of fun, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 7:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Al Muckart wrote:
- Linen canvas aketon padded either with raw wool or tow, or made from a few layers of linen and closed at the front with a single spiral lace. This doesn't need to be hugely thick and rigid, it's just padding for under your armour to prevent chafing. This should reach to mid-thigh.


Would the single spiral lace closure be that specific a requirement? I know buttons were in use in the 14th Century, but I can't remember if they were in use quite as early as 1340. Wouldn't several sets of laces/points be a valid solutions as well?

Al Muckart wrote:
A klappviser bascinet seems a little late for that style of kit, I'd go with either an open-faced bascinet, a greathelm (optionally over the bascinet), or a kettle-hat.


Again, I am not certain on dates. I thought there were a few examples of klappvisers that were this early, but I could be wrong. I would definately avoid the ever-popular hundskul bascinet, as it really didn't come into use until the last 20 years of the century. I personally like the kettle-hat solution (they really seem to have been quite popular), but it will depend on what exactly you are trying to represent.

I really need to start working on a kit myself.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 7:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for your hints.

Yes, I forgit to mention the COP. The thing to start would be the aketon. Just found a shop where could get one with my measurments. I thought of a version with a diamond pattern on the chest and vertial quilting for the rest. Material would be linen padded with a layer of woolen blanket, so not stuffed.

The thing is I won´t do LH. So the kit would be just for me and possibly some sparing.

The second item yould be the helmet. The kattle hat would be great, but theres no face protection (sparring), on the other hand, I just checked the klapp visor bascinet, the visor wouldn´t help much. So third option bascinet with attached nasal and aiventail attached to helmet and nasal.

The mail will be GDFB flat rings rivetted. Just saw that the splinted legs they offer are arms Confused
So probably I will take just mail chausses over padded hosen, quilted cuisses and gutter shaped shynbalds.

The arms of bestarmour look really promising, just didn´t get a response to may questions yet.

As for the COP, what pattern would you think of. On Armourarchieve there are several patterns shown. Alternatively how about this http://www.bestarmour.com/details/zbroje71.html. There is a picture in Osprey´s German medieval armies 1300-1500 with a knight wearing this kind of armour beneath his purple surcoat.(secondary source *cough*).
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Steve Fabert





Joined: 03 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 8:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You don't say where you live, which may limit the sources for your kit or increase the expense. But if Canadian made products are accessible to you, you may want to browse the offerings at Valentine Armouries.

http://www.varmouries.com/vcat_04.html

Although their prices have increased some in the past year, the variety of designs available from VA make them an excellent source for armor components for your chosen era of interest. I have a suit of their 14th Century armor with Northern European options and multiple helms, and can only say good things about it for people with hat sizes under seven and a half. If your head is bigger than that the VA helms may be a bit tight.
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Michael R. Black





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PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Forgive my interruption, but I was reading this thread, and I am interested in an arm harness, pictured above. Can anyone provide a link to bestarmor homepage? I tried a few google searches, but did not find it.

Thanks in advance for any help,

Michael
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Martin Wilkinson





Joined: 05 Mar 2006

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael R. Black wrote:
Forgive my interruption, but I was reading this thread, and I am interested in an arm harness, pictured above. Can anyone provide a link to bestarmor homepage? I tried a few google searches, but did not find it.

Thanks in advance for any help,

Michael


http://www.bestarmour.com/

"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."

Schola Gladiatoria
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am sorry. I am from Germany, so European vendors would be the only option. But I know the Valentine page an they have very nice pieces.
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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
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Posts: 309

PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 12:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Greyson,

Greyson Brown wrote:
Would the single spiral lace closure be that specific a requirement? I know buttons were in use in the 14th Century, but I can't remember if they were in use quite as early as 1340. Wouldn't several sets of laces/points be a valid solutions as well?


I don't know whether buttons were used on aketons or not, I'm not that much of an expert. You certainly see them on later 14th century coat armours, but those are external layers.

I said that based partly on the fact that that was a common closure for the period in civillian dress, and on things like the black prince's coat armour and partly on the fact that it's going to have a whole lot of fairly heavy armour over it, so points and buttons get a bit uncomfortable once there's a hauberk and a coat off plates smooshing them against your chest.

--
Al.
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Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Al,

Those are good points. I hadn't really considered the ramifications of things like buttons under armour. Worried Your suggestions does sound like the most comfortable.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Nov, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello again.

I am just in the process of ordering a Gambeson made of heavy linen on the outside, padded with wool stitching in vertical tubes and a skirt instead of slits, as it is for a man at arms on foot.

The next thing will be a bascinet with aiventail. The Klappvisier I tested lately is just covering the face, but when hit from the front it comes in breaking my nose, so if this is what it was made for Worried

Unfortunately bestarmour didn´t answer my e-mail, perhaps they are rather buisy at the moment.

A question on leg harness, what do you think of this ? http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/nohy61.html
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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Aug, 2007 5:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Several months later, the ideas on my kit are evolving.
I just changed to some northern italian appearance.

I ordered a Grand Aisiette sleeved piece of padded armour and a helmet that turns out like this I hope: http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spot_basc25.jpg

Then I will pad it properly and put on a padded aventail plus a mail aiventail of solid and wedge rivetted rings.

Next there should be the gauntlets where I would like some brainstorming, these would be my ideas:
1) http://www.armorymarek.com/katalog/gloves/slides/p17-160.jpg
2) http://www.armorymarek.com/katalog/gloves/slides/X18-240.jpg (without brass)
3) see attachment



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Troy G L Williams




Location: Moody, Texas
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2007 3:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If I was you I would send a PM to Oleg Yanchuk. You can find him here. I don't have the armour yet but he lives in the Ukraine and he has been a pleasure to work with. He is working on virtually a full harness for me dated mid to late 14th century. He is very reasonable with his cost. Just a suggestion. Good luck to you. Happy
v/r,
Troy Williams

"It’s merely a flesh wound." -Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That third set of gauntlets dates from the early 15th century, I believe.
Happy

ChadA

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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2007 7:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@ Chad

Yes indeed, it is from 1410.

I try to focus around 1390-1410. I think a little bit of a range is not too bad for making a decision.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2007 9:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have used buttons and lacing for my aketons and never minded it either way. Especially if you use soft buttons they make little issue.

Look forward to seeing the finished harness

RPM
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Oct, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
what do you think of this bascinet for a late 14th cent italian style, inlet holes and vervelles to be added.



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Aaron J. Cergol





Joined: 02 Aug 2006

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Oct, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

in regards to that bascinet-if you're going for an Italian personna (this especially applies to norther Italy) the occularia is off to me. I think of *most* italian bascinets occularia to be less boxy. by this I mean, the top of the occularia should be starting to form at the top of the visor and then gently and smoothly "swell" out to become boxy on the sides and bottom. for an example of this look at the Lyle Bascinet. the occularia on the helm you posted, makes no transition from the slope of the skull to the occularia-it just goes from the skull contour to box, which to me says German.

as to the houndskull visor, I think the point goes out a bit far. yes there are visors that have the "snout" this far out, but the majority seem to be shortened.

and regarding the visor pivots, I would personally opt to replace them with cast brass mounts, such like the ones sold by Patric Thaden. ( http://www.thadenarmory.com/sell/misc/miscellaneous.htm the second and third to last on the page)

the skull shape looks good to me. has a very historical shape to it with some nice subtle shaping.

overall if you were to add vervelles (in the correct positions) and a maille avenatil (riveted of course Cool ) you could easily pass off as what you are going for. if you don;t mind me asking, who made it? overall a very nice reproduction, that will pass off nicley for your personna.

hope this helps,

Aaron J. Cergol
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Oct, 2007 12:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello, I gave him a photo of the Wallace collection Basinet, which is assumed to be northern italian. So the boxy eyeslots are from that example, the same goes for the visor pivot, the snout is that far out too, my only constraint at the moment is that there doesn´t seem to be an angle between the sights and the transition to the snout. Maybe it is ther perspective, I asked for some more pictures.

The vervelles and holes for the lining are in the works, he just send me a picture for the basic appearance. A riveted maille aventail is already with me. Proper lining is to be made as soon as the helmet arrives.

Thanks so far
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Alberto Dainese




Location: Padova - Italy
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Oct, 2007 12:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

where does the third set of gauntlet came from? I like it quite a lot.
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