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Tony G.




Location: U.K.
Joined: 25 Mar 2006

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 5:10 am    Post subject: Sallet Helmet.         Reply with quote

I recently purchased a Sallet and would be Interested in your comments. The Sallet was in a rough state and I have spent a lot of time doing carefull restoration. Weigh`s 4.50 pounds, has turned under wired rim, one piece scull and of quality.
I have sent photographs to a well known top expert in the UK and have said ( In there opinion it is probably a fake )because of "Quote" The corrosion patterns are typical of modern pieces that have been rapidly Ďagedí. this was said only from photographs and not handled !!!
The corrosion vary`s from deep to mild, Little on the top getting worse going down to the tail, bad were the helmet has been lying on Its side but all over different degrees of pitting and would be difficult to do, unless you know better. Also after removing corrosion there is about 60% of rock hard black paint. ( Tar, pitch )
I know there are good fakes around but I am not convinced as yet. Any help please would be appreciated.

The picture of the two Sallets shows the left one known as the Coventry Sallet.

Thanks Tony...
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Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 11:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As long as it is not a badly forged (not a pun) piece, it is very difficult to judge from pics.

Maybe your super-expert is a real one but I would go for a series of analisis made in faculty lab.....
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 12:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
this was said only from photographs and not handled !!!


I do not intend this to sound harsh, if it does, I apologize:

If you did not expect the "expert" to be able to discern anything from photos, why did you send them to him or her in the first place? What would your reaction have been had the expert said that is authentic? I suggest finding someone who can examine your helmet in person. That way there is a greater chance for an accurate appraisal of the sallet's authenticity. (Not that you have not already thought of this on your own! Happy )

Best of luck in your quest for the truth!

Jonathan
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just wanted to add that regardless of the sallet's age, it was in very rough shape when you began, and you did a nice job of cleaning it up!

Jonathan
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Tony G.




Location: U.K.
Joined: 25 Mar 2006

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Jonathan,
Thanks for your comments, I agree with you, I have emailed the Leeds Armoury ( without pics ) to try to take It for there expert advice but still waiting for reply. The expert I sent the pics to I was hoping they would want to see but just said "The corrosion patterns are typical of modern pieces that have been rapidly Ďaged" Full Stop....
I have been offered help by an member and this was the Idea of putting the helmet on.
Thanks Tony.
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tony,
I think I understand your frustration now. You were not frustrated that he or she suggested it might be fake, but that he or she gave you no more than one sentence. Do I have that right? This museum sounds like a rather accessible place and is discussed in this thread. Perhaps someone there could help you?

Jonathan
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Tony G.




Location: U.K.
Joined: 25 Mar 2006

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes Jonathan,
left me in mid-air but will sort It.
Thanks Tony.
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Sam Haverkamp
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Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 8:04 pm    Post subject: Sallet         Reply with quote

Hi I am new here but wanted to comment on your helmet. Looks real enough to me but now I am concerned. The sallet in the attached picture is also supposedly authentic. I am waiting for it to ship. I won it on ebay at lower than average price for a 16th century helmet. I guess the only way to know would be to have it dated in a lab.
Sam



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The infamous sallet
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 8:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those sallets do look a lot alike. I wonder if you both got them from eBay?

Sam, I'm sending you a PM.

Jonathan
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 10:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

well that is interesting. Before you sell the farm the museum I worked at had a number of helmets that were near identical, (in fact a former curator had even misnumbered a few with the others numbers they were so similar). Lab testing it the best way in the end to see but getting it looked at in person would be a good start.

RPM
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Sam Haverkamp
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov, 2006 11:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am now convinced that there is a dead rat in the pudding. Its just too much coincidence and look at this other Sallet I was going to buy. Too good to be true for 300 pounds, but looks great. The seller has great feedback overall, so who's to know. Thanks for your help with this, I am more than a little miffed over this.


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Tony G.




Location: U.K.
Joined: 25 Mar 2006

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 1:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, to good to be true I think but whatever they are there good.
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Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 4:51 am    Post subject: Re: Sallet         Reply with quote

Sam Haverkamp wrote:
Hi I am new here but wanted to comment on your helmet. Looks real enough to me but now I am concerned. The sallet in the attached picture is also supposedly authentic. I am waiting for it to ship. I won it on ebay at lower than average price for a 16th century helmet. I guess the only way to know would be to have it dated in a lab.
Sam


Ebay?

Aaarghhhh

I have read horror stories about modern militaria being sold on ebay ... Why should somebody possessing a real precious helm that could fetch him some thousand dollars be willing to sell it at a generalist and very popular auction price site for a pittance?

Why would any owner of a museum piece sell it for almost nothing, maybe one tenth of its valour or even less?

Just look at tehse two sallet, they are out from the same shop.

I daresay a modern shop at this point.
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 4:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

2 points:

1) even dents are identical appearance, a sign of forgery made by the same forger. Forgers ever leave such identification marks, there would be no need to leave marks like these, but they want to impress customers ending up overantiquing so forcing impressions fastly on prospective victims, so leaving telltale forgery marks for experts.

2) dents and the visor demonstaret that the metal is of poor quality and very thin, I guess it is in the 1mm - 1.5 mm range at most.

Original helms were at least 2 mm thick, and the ones who survive do not have such dents.

This helms remind me of modern toys, or 19t centuries victorian reproes at best.
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
Joined: 01 Jul 2006

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 9:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The lines and proportions of the "E-bay" sallets do not seem to be historically accurate. The workmanship is more along the lines of a Victorian re-creator than of a medievil careered armourer, one who had to produce a battle worthy product. A period apprentice would have probably done a better job...
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Tony G.




Location: U.K.
Joined: 25 Mar 2006

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dont really agree, look at the Covetry Sallet, not a lot of differance.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 10:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tony G. wrote:
Dont really agree, look at the Covetry Sallet, not a lot of differance.


Not true. There are a lot of subtle (and not so) differences in shapes and proportions. They only bear a passing resemblance to each other.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam Haverkamp wrote:
I am now convinced that there is a dead rat in the pudding. Its just too much coincidence and look at this other Sallet I was going to buy. Too good to be true for 300 pounds, but looks great. The seller has great feedback overall, so who's to know. Thanks for your help with this, I am more than a little miffed over this.



300 pounds sounds like a fair price for a good quality sallet "in the style of..." I just viewed a repro kettle helmet in similar condition at Hermann Historica, and that piece went for 350 Euro, which matched the auction estimate. Look around at what a custom sallet would cost. Even the MRL sallets are over $200 USD. So, I think you got a fair deal. I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe that one can acquire a 500 year-old sallet in this condition for only 300 pounds. Helmets command shocking prices, and I would expect a 15th-16th c. sallet in this condition to sell for thousands of dollars. By the way, your sallet might honestly be said to be "real," "authentic," and "original". Heck, it might even be a "genuine antique."

For reference, consider that this rust-damaged helmet of ca. 1450 had an auction limit of 8,000 Euro (Hermann Historica) and was sold.



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The dents bother me as well. I antiqued a cabasset before I really paid much attention to armour, and the first thing I did was whack it with a khukri to give the impression that the helmet had been "used" in combat. Since then I've seen lots of antique helmets and not one with that kind of damage. I like to think I'm better informed now. Interesting, though, that the first thing I thought to do was try to bash in the helmet. I suspect that's the first thing predatory forgers do as well, to prove to the unsuspecting that their work is "real".
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
The dents bother me as well. I antiqued a cabasset before I really paid much attention to armour, and the first thing I did was whack it with a khukri to give the impression that the helmet had been "used" in combat. Since then I've seen lots of antique helmets and not one with that kind of damage. I like to think I'm better informed now. Interesting, though, that the first thing I thought to do was try to bash in the helmet. I suspect that's the first thing predatory forgers do as well, to prove to the unsuspecting that their work is "real".



Yes, none of the helmets or armor parts I have seen in my life carries such dents.

They are deep also, meaning a poor quality metal that wouldn't have been accepted by the strict armor guilds' standards.

300 pounds. as for the above post, 300 punds is far more than 300 euros: 300 pounds is 667 dollars, or 522 euros.

At czerny they would give away a nice 19th century repro pigface basinet for just 250 euros as an auction minimum.
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