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Brian D. A.





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PostPosted: Thu 19 Oct, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: Need very "basic" sources for speech         Reply with quote

Hello,

Iím taking speech at a local community college and for my informative speech my general topic is the parts of a medieval sword.

All of the websites that Iíve found that have the ďelementaryĒ information Iím looking for (such as definitions and diagrams of sword components) are not the kind of sources I am allowed to cite (Wikipedia and forum websites). Sources that are considered legitimate are either too advanced (the classic books), or are so general that they are of little use (encyclopedias).

I need eight sources generally related to swords: 2 books, 2 websites, 2 reference materials, 2 specific journals or magazines. Only four of these references actually have to be used in the speech and need to be specific to my topic.

I have access to several Oakeshott e-books, ordinary encyclopedias, and of course, the Internet, but canít seem to find the type of information Iím looking for.

If anyone can direct me to books, websites (published articles), magazine articles etc. that have this basic information, it would be very much appreciated


Thank you
Brian
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Oct, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What do you define as a "forum website"?

Have you looked at the rest of this site? There is an insane amount of info here including the most comprehensive list of books and book reviews on the subject.

Our feature articles are full of information and include sources and citing information when available.

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Felix Wang




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PostPosted: Thu 19 Oct, 2006 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Book: Guy Windsor's The Swordsman's Companion. The part of a baskethilt are discussed in Stephen Hand's English Swordsmanship: George Silver.

Another website, aside from the excellent material right here: http://www.thehaca.com/terms4.htm#Sword%20Parts
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Brian D. A.





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PostPosted: Thu 19 Oct, 2006 8:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the quick replies.

This website is certainly an excellent resource, but my teacher wants published articles of ďoriginalĒ information.

For example, Wikipedia has some basic sword information, but doesnít have the same authority as a real encyclopedia. I canít even use it for a website source because its articles are ďcompilationsĒ without the references. (At least according to my teacher.)

Itís frustrating because I can find what I want in sources I canít cite, and in books I can reference I can only find advanced topics or overgeneralizations.

There are many relevant articles on this site, Iím just not sure if Iím allowed to cite them directly from here because they are not published by a well-known source. I really need to get the original published source of the terms, diagrams, etc. that are used in some of the articles; I know I can reference that.

Thanks,
Brian
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Oct, 2006 9:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am not suggesting you use any Web site as a citation, but merely as a means to find published works. This site is an excellent source of such information if you take the time to look at what it offers.

Regarding books, at this moment there are 141 member reading lists with 564 book reviews, all related to the subjects surrounding arms and armour.

I'd suggest the following books:

British basket-hilts:
British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology of Basket-Type Sword Hilts, by Cyril Mazansky

Viking Swords:
Swords of the Viking Age, by Ian Peirce

Medieval Swords:
Records of the Medieval Sword, by Ewart Oakeshott
The Sword in the Age of Chivalry, by Ewart Oakeshott
Arms & Armor of the Medieval Knight, by David Edge and John Miles Paddock
Europaische Hieb Und Stich Waffen (European Thrusting and Slashing Weapons), by Hartmut Kolling and Heinrich Muller

Renaissance Swords:
The Rapier & Small-Sword: 1460-1820, by A. V. Norman
European Weapons and Armour: From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution, by Ewart Oakeshott

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Brian D. A.





Joined: 21 Nov 2005

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PostPosted: Thu 19 Oct, 2006 10:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do plan on referencing some of those books for sources, but I'm afraid they're too in depth for this speech. (It's only a 5-7 minute talk.) Because this group has little knowledge of swords, I feel that I need to just cover the basics like, "The hilt consists of three parts...". Where can I find sources that cover things this basic? Worried

Brian
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Oct, 2006 11:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I stand by those suggestions.

I'm not sure a book that lacks any and all details of a subject would really be worth writing. Maybe a children's book might be in order. Perhaps some of those "Eyewitness" books or something. I don't know.

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Brian D. A.





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PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for your help, Nathan.

If only one of those books had a glossary of sword components. (The authors generally assume that their readers already know a few basic things. Iím not allowed to assume that my audience knows anything other than common knowledge and on this topic I feel that is accurate.)

I need a simple topic because
1) I donít know that much about swords
2) It is a short speech
3) The class knows even less about swords.

If I were to talk about the Oakeshott typology for example, they probably wouldnít remember anything I said. (If they know anything about medieval weapons, itís what theyíve seen on TV.)

These articles from the features section have the kind of information Iím looking for.

Definitions, Terminology, and Beginner Info

q Anatomy of the Sword
q A Beginner's Glossary of Terms
q Forms of European Edged Weaponry
q An Introduction to the Sword
q Variety and Evolution of the Hilt

Does anyone know where the information in these articles came from or perhaps who wrote them?

Also, the idea of beginnerís books is very good. I donít know of any, but now I can start looking.

Thank you,
Brian

- The people here are too smart Wink
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 7:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian,
This is a bit of a tall order. Most sources with citeable clout and accurate information aren't so "basic". This is kind of a specialty field after all. You might look at Ewart Oakeshott's "A Knight and his..." series. These are shorter, more introductory-level books meant for a younger audience. The Coe-edited "Swords and Hilt Weapons" is not too awful (though some disagree) and is a good starter book: not too in-depth and covering a variety of weapons, time periods, and cultures. The Edge/Paddock Arms & Armour of the Medieval Knight is a good book but out of print and getting more expensive.

I know of a few good terms diagrams but they're in German. See here: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=7685

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Gordon Clark




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PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In my opinion, Nathan, Chad and the rest of the staff here do a better job of editing and content checking than most "published" sources, but I understand the blanket forbidding of "web sites".

You might try some books that are not directly swiord references - perhaps look at some European martial arts books, something like "The Swordman's Companion: A Manual for Training With the Medieval Longsword", or "Medieval Swordsmanship: Illustrated Methods and Techniques". I have not read these, but it is a good bet they at least discuss parts of the sword.


Also, in Records of the Medieval Sword, there is a "making of a sword" article, that may have some of what you need, I don't remember for sure...

Gordon
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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all!

Brian,
I want to first echo what others have already said, you best resources for information on swords would probably be any of the various Oakeshott books. The book geared for young adults, A Knight and His Weapons, has a decent chapter about swords and daggers. It covers what general form medieval swords took, and then discusses the typology without getting too detailed, specific, or technical. The Archaeology of Weapons is also a bit more general than some of Oakeshott's other works, but it has a few decent chapters on swords. A part of research is digesting the material and presenting it in a reworked, often shorter format, so that's what you may have to do!

That being said, there are a few books that have some diagrams showing the "parts of a sword" that also contain some general information about swords. Gerald Weland's A Collector's Guide to Swords, Daggers and Cutlasses contains two diagrammatic illustrations, one displaying the parts of a sword, the other the parts of a handle. The whole sword shown is a naval cutlass, and the sword used for the "parts of a handle" is a British Naval Presentation Sword, but much of the information applies equally to medieval swords. Weland's text might be a bit suspect, although the book does contain a general history of the sword.

Another book that contains a "parts of the sword" diagram is Swords and Daggers: an Illustrated Handbook by Eduard Wagner. Wagner's book actually contains several diagrams in the beginning: one shows an array of straight and curved cut-and-thrust weapons; another shows the parts of the blade, hilt, and scabbard of an Austrian Cavalry Sabre, Model 1904; another shows the parts of a medieval sword; another shows the parts of a Renaissance rapier; another shows the parts of a Baroque rapier; and yet another shows the parts of a sabre with a slender hand-guard. His text contains some interesting general information in the introduction, a short section on the history of the sword, and discussions of some types of swords. He even has separate short sections dealing with the blade, hilt, and hand-guard. The information may be a little outdated (the book was first published in 1975), but it's the best general book about the sword that includes diagrams that I can think of.

Another book, more general in scope, that deals with sword basics is Weapons: an International Encyclopedia from 500 BC to 2000 AD by the Diagram Group. This also contains a very simple diagram showing the parts of the sword, as well as a brief illustrated section dealing with the history of the sword and different swords of the world. The drawings of the Asian swords are nicer than those for the European swords, but the book does contain a size comparison between a large hand-and-a-half sword and a one-handed sword, and a captioned illustration of pommel types. This might be a good book to use as a "basic" reference.

A final suggestion, if you can find it, is European and American Arms by Claude Blair. The text at the beginning of the book gives a fairly detailed but concise account of the evolution of the sword, including the development of the parts of the sword. Diagrams toward the back of the book show the different medieval pommel types, the parts of a rapier hilt, and a plethora of drawings of regulation swords. This book might be more technical than you are looking for (similar to some of Oakeshott's works), but it's an idea.

I hope this helped your search for basic sources. There aren't many basic sources that deal with the sword alone. I would suggest start looking for the Diagram Weapons book (it might be available in your local library) and working from there, supplemented with others such as Wagner's Swords and Daggers book.

Check out some of our reading lists to get a better idea of what's out there!

Stay safe!

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Felix Wang




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PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2006 10:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian,

Guy Windsor's book has exactly the page you are looking for: a diagram of a sword with a list of very brief paragraphs explaining what each part is and what it does.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 3:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix Wang wrote:
Brian,

Guy Windsor's book has exactly the page you are looking for: a diagram of a sword with a list of very brief paragraphs explaining what each part is and what it does.


Maybe someone with a scanner or digital camera could post the picture of that diagram or send it to you directly in an e-mail?

I think you can trust 100% the basic content on the feature articles you have already read here about the basic elements of the hilt of a medieval sword as it's very general content that is in no way in contradiction to any of the more " scholarly sources " maybe the problem is in part that it is basic knowledge.

You can use the feature article information to write your presentation and use the diagram from the Guy Winsors book as supporting evidence.

You might also use the info on the Albion site in this article: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/sword-terms.htm

Also this article about Peter Johnsson who apart from being a highly regarded sword maker has studied first hand and made replicas for Museums of medieval swords and should qualify as an expert source:
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/peter.htm

Here is another sword he reproduced for a museum display that is also available as a museum line sword offered by Albion: Note the picture of the original sword and Peter's copy displayed in the same display window. A museum wouldn't use a poor or inaccurate reproduction in such a display.
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/...itonia.htm

Don't know if your teacher would accept these sources as valid but maybe you should ask if he or she might change their mind about ALL web sources can be considered as invalid or unreliable ? No harm in printing out these pages and asking your teacher's opinion. It's not as if you were using some " gamer " chat site forum as a source ?

One has to be very careful with web site content since it can be very low in reliability, but not all web content is trash ! Big Grin

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Shawn Shaw




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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 6:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian-

Citing a reference doesn't mean you necessarily regurgitate what is written ver batim. For example, you can cite a book or other reference that is "advanced" but adjust the content to be appropriate. You are still referencing the advanced text but your act of making that material accessible to a beginner audience is your piece of original work.

Unless your teacher wants you to simply regurgitate the content of 8 resources (which I feel would be a waste of everyone's time), I'd suggest you not worry about sources being too advanced. If you can read them and understand them, you should be able to pass that on to your audience.

Good luck!
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Brian D. A.





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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct, 2006 8:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix Wang,

You recommended Guy Windsorís book. Is this the right one, The Swordman's Companion: A Manual for Training With the Medieval Longsword?


Shawn Shaw,

In the introduction to Records of the Medieval Sword, Oakeshott actually defines what a fuller is. Later, he indirectly explains what function pommels serve when he talks about a particular sword needing a large pommel to balance the blade. When discussing grips, he mentions that the wood is sandwiched around the tang. So, in a round about way I can get references for some definitions.

But it is always nice to have a simple definition to cite to. Also, since I do plan on using a large picture, it would be useful to have a specific diagram reference.


Thank you all for replying.
Brian

[edit] By the way, how do you pronounce "Ewart Oakeshott"; I really don't want to mispronounce anyone's name.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Oct, 2006 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The accepted academic standard for citation is that basic, general knowledge and knowledge not derived from a specific source need not be cited. You simply aren't likely to find a book that offers citation for the parts of a sword. Your task, as I see it, is to digest the in-depth works for your audience rather than try to find something pre-made for it. Oakeshott is your best bet for that, since you have access to the digital versions of his books (I know Records is out there, but I don't remember if it contains an introduction to sword terminology. Check the appendixes).

I don't know if it will help you make your case, but the articles on this site are peer-reviewed. Unlike self-published or short-run print publications, everything published here is reviewed for accuracy by a team of informed editors. I have more confidence in any article published here than I have in some well-known print publications on the subject of swords. This site is not a collaborative encyclopedia, in which anyone can publish anything with the expectation that users will come to agreement upon a "truth". What you find in the articles here is basic academic research, with source bibliographies.

For what it's worth, I say all this as a myArmoury.com Team Member, professional writer, frequent public speaker, news editor at a major regional university and holder of degrees in History, English and Education.

Good Luck!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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