Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Parrying Dagger Suspension Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Nate C.




Location: Palo Alto, CA
Joined: 13 Jun 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Sun 15 Oct, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Parrying Dagger Suspension         Reply with quote

Greetings,

I am in the process of placing an order for a rapier and dagger (Dresden from A&A) and I intend to get a suspension for it as well. my question is this; what is the historically correct way to hang the dagger on the belt. I've seen plenty of rapier suspensions but they don't usually show how the dagger is hung. Thanks in advance for your help.

Cheers,

Nate C.

Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt

If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Wilkinson





Joined: 05 Mar 2006

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Mon 16 Oct, 2006 4:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My understanding is that the dagger is suspended from a belt, normally hilt to the right, but people also did/do it to the left.
"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."

Schola Gladiatoria
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Mon 16 Oct, 2006 5:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Historical portraiture is a good source for such information.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ian Evans




Location: Sheffield
Joined: 17 Oct 2006

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue 17 Oct, 2006 3:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To be honest, the few pictures that I've seen that do show the back of someone wearing a belt and hanger all show the dagger simply stuck thro the belt with the hilt pointing towards the right side of the body and the right hand....
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Tue 17 Oct, 2006 10:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nate;

Everything I've seen in historical paintings and illustrations show that the dagger was pretty much either just stuffed into the belt and/or tied to the belt. I have yet to see an original dagger scabbard with a loop on it, though that doesn't mean that they weren't on some or even most of them. However, one almost always sees some sort of cords dangling from the dagger, and I am pretty certain that they are the ends of the ties. It's definitely what I do with my own Dresden dagger!

Check out "Image of Irelande" by John Derrick. It shows English soldiers on the march in the latter-half of the 16th Century, with daggers stuffed and tied to the belt:

http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/Galler...eland.html

BTW, glad that you're going to gird yourself properly with your Dresden. It's a beautiful sword, and a big one as well, so it deserves a stout, high-quality belt and hanger.

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Nate C.




Location: Palo Alto, CA
Joined: 13 Jun 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Wed 18 Oct, 2006 10:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks everyone!

I had a hunch that this was a pretty simple question, but I wanted to make sure. I'd hate to get it wrong since this set will probably be the start of a armored cav kit (once I can ride, get more money, etc.).

Gordon - Yes, I thought it definitely deserved a correct suspension all the way around. the sword/suspension will be my graduation present to myself this spring when I finish my Master's. I've also started riding lessons Big Grin . I've discovered places I didn't know could get sore Worried .

Cheers,

Nate C.

Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt

If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
View user's profile Send private message
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Wed 18 Oct, 2006 9:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nate C. wrote:

Gordon - Yes, I thought it definitely deserved a correct suspension all the way around. the sword/suspension will be my graduation present to myself this spring when I finish my Master's. I've also started riding lessons Big Grin . I've discovered places I didn't know could get sore Worried .


Bully for you, Nate! Excellent on all counts! (Getting your Masters, starting Riding Lessons, and working up to be armoured cavalry (the real stuff, not this paltry smelly stuff with diesel engines propelling them... Big Grin )

Here's a pic of my rig, if you can see it from the rather small view, from my play time at the local Ren Faire last August. It doesn't have all the cool details of the mountings and such, but the original picture was WAY too big a file to be posted!

Cheers!

Gordon



 Attachment: 21.11 KB
GH-06-Dresdenshotsm.jpg


"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,208

PostPosted: Wed 18 Oct, 2006 11:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Frye wrote:

Here's a pic of my rig, if you can see it from the rather small view, from my play time at the local Ren Faire last August. It doesn't have all the cool details of the mountings and such, but the original picture was WAY too big a file to be posted!

Cheers!

Gordon


Gordon;

You could e-mail me the high resolution file at max. resolution and I could pull a close-up of just the small of your back and dagger i.e. crop it and resize it so it will fit here below the 125k size limit: Easy to do with Photoshop. Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Thu 19 Oct, 2006 9:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean;

I just sent you a couple of shots to amuse yourself with, so crop to your heart's content! Big Grin

Thank you for making the offer, I appreciate it.

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,208

PostPosted: Thu 19 Oct, 2006 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Frye wrote:
Jean;

I just sent you a couple of shots to amuse yourself with, so crop to your heart's content! Big Grin

Thank you for making the offer, I appreciate it.

Cheers!

Gordon


Cropped and magnified the dagger at the small of the back: Couldn't make it very large without loosing some focus, but it is a bit bigger and shown from two angles.

You might explain in more detail how it's laced to the scabbard and belt ?



 Attachment: 61.16 KB
GH'06a Dresdenshot.jpg


 Attachment: 55.67 KB
GH'06pigsticking4a.jpg


You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Thu 19 Oct, 2006 11:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Jean! That's pretty cool how you can do that. Wink

Anyway, the method used for affixing my dagger scabbard to my waist belt (aka "girdle" in Elizabethan English) is with both the belt-loop that was riveted to the scabbard as it came from A&A, and with the brown chord with tassles that you can see floating in the wind. I bound the scabbard around the belt several times in an "X" pattern, to keep it at an angle, and tied it firmly. Seems to work well, and looks just like the illustrations I've seen of Elizabethan soldiers and gentlemen.

The light-coloured chord you see bouncing under the dagger is one of the points from my breeches, which tie them to my doublet. Must have come loose somehow in the course of the day... Eek!

Again, thanks Jean for posting those! And good luck, Nate, on your own endeavours in this hobby!

Allons!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Ian Evans




Location: Sheffield
Joined: 17 Oct 2006

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon 30 Oct, 2006 3:39 am    Post subject: De Gheyn as a source         Reply with quote

Just spotted something interesting in the 1607 set of the De Gheyn plates. The only plates to show a dagger being worn are the Calivar plates, with maybe half of the plates showing a dagger hilt. One plate shows the rear of the Calivarman and shows the dagger stuck thro the belt, with cords tying it into place.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Mon 30 Oct, 2006 4:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nate C. wrote:
I've also started riding lessons Big Grin .


You may find it usefull to read my site http://users.telenet.be/huertecilla/ before you get completely brainwashed by parforce riding.

You should not be getting sore on even a bare McClellan but unfortunately that is beyond internet to explain. I can however advise you to buy and read Anatomy of Dressage by Schusdziarra which is a sadly unique masterpiece adressing the RIDER luckily republished by your national federation.
Have fun!

Peter
View user's profile
George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Mon 30 Oct, 2006 4:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian Evans wrote:
To be honest, the few pictures that I've seen that do show the back of someone wearing a belt and hanger all show the dagger simply stuck thro the belt with the hilt pointing towards the right side of the body and the right hand....


Pardon, but as a dagger of this type is usually understood to be used in conjunction with the sword, if it is pointing to the right hand, how do you get it out with the left when you have sword in hand?

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Mon 30 Oct, 2006 4:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Frye wrote:
Here's a pic of my rig,


Thank you Gordon.

Your foto illustrates a potential problem carrying a fairly long sword from the belt when in the saddle. I need it to point far more downward to prevent it sticking into the horses rear quarters and mine are to agile and light on the aids for that.
A long estoque suspended vertically from the front of the saddle LOOKS akward but is actually out of the way.

Fiddling about with all kinds of unwieldy things on horseback I have come to the conclusion that the armament of mounted men is very dependant on how they intend to ride, what their role is. It is therfore paramount to understand the context of the time, the state of the art of weaponry and warfare, even the location as to terrain and space.
I have no doubt that for reconnaissance the rider would be completely differently equiped than when riding into battle and that again would be different from riding patrol. I also completely understand why dragoons got OFF the horse once having reached the battle field and I the guys using rapier and dagger used the fighting on foot too....
The renaissance riding manuals show a lot of weapon use too and I find these illustrations quite... illustrative Wink

There is an inherent internal contradiction in cavalry between arms and horse-riding. The essence of cavalry is Light&Fast stressing the ultimate importance of the minimum of weapons needed.

Peter
View user's profile
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Mon 30 Oct, 2006 8:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
Ian Evans wrote:
To be honest, the few pictures that I've seen that do show the back of someone wearing a belt and hanger all show the dagger simply stuck thro the belt with the hilt pointing towards the right side of the body and the right hand....


Pardon, but as a dagger of this type is usually understood to be used in conjunction with the sword, if it is pointing to the right hand, how do you get it out with the left when you have sword in hand?


Ian is indeed correct, all of the illustrations and paintings of the period show the dagger stuffed into the belt at the small of the back, and angled to the RIGHT side of the body. As I understand it, the purpose is to allow immediate access to a weapon, even though the smaller of the two carried, for a fast reaction to a threat and with the strong hand. Once in position to be used defensively, the rapier may be removed (usually along with the scabbard, at least in a civilian context) and drawn, (generally after shifting hands with the dagger, I would immagine). If you've ever tried to do a "fast draw" with a rapier, you'll understand just how awkward such a move can be, thus the necessity for a quicker weapon to be at hand. Big Grin

I hope I explained that properly...

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Mon 30 Oct, 2006 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter;

Indeed, the essence of LIGHT Cavalry certainly is "Light & Fast", but of course during the Renaissance, such Light Horse was rather despised as useful for nothing more than reconaissance and raids (which of course became the primary reason for Cavalry to exist during the 19th and 20th Centuries, but that's a different story). For Heavy Horse, it's a whole different program indeed. Rather like a weight lifter compared to a marathon runner. Wink

As for carrying the sword, it changes over time and is totally dependent upon fashion and styles of the day. I've ridden with swords slung in the Mediaeval fashion, used (as pictured) the Renaissance hangers, baldrics, and the Hussar straps so fashionable during the 19th Century, and I have to say that the hanger-type under discussion is the most comfortable and the easiest to access. It's very true that you have to be careful not to use the scabbard as an aid to your riding though! Thus I don't use a crop to train my horse, I want him rather immune to such cues as might be inadvertently given by me through my scabbard.

I've had horses that were very fidgetty with such a sword suspensory device poking him in the flanks, but were perfectly at ease with the 19th Century straps slinging the sabre straight down, banging away at every step, so I definitely understand where you are coming from with the comments. But it depends upon the horse, his temperment, and of course, training and the rider's ability to NOT be fidgetty in the saddle, too. Big Grin

But you are absolutely right in that the weapons and suspensory style depends greatly on how they intend to ride, and what the ultimate purpose of the style is intended to achieve. For Light Horse of the 19th Century variety, definitely "Fast and Light" must be achieved for proper service. But for the Heavy Horse of the Renaissance, where shock was a primary objective and protection of the horse and rider a secondary, but still important one, strength and power were the proper focus. Different styles for different purposes. Cool

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Mon 30 Oct, 2006 9:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Frye wrote:
I've had horses that were very fidgetty with such a sword suspensory device poking him in the flanks, but were perfectly at ease with the 19th Century straps slinging the sabre straight down, banging away at every step, so I definitely understand where you are coming from with the comments. But it depends upon the horse, his temperment, and of course, training and the rider's ability to NOT be fidgetty in the saddle, too. Big Grin


Well Gordon, I guess warhorses are a different proposition once they are intended to go into close contact battle.

Living in the present day era I do not ride horse to survive, not even for a living, just for MY fun. The whole outset is thus different.

Obviously a less sensitive horse would be more... secure in close contact activities. It would also be less expert working together with the ridder.. Take your pick.

The renaissance books from La Gueriniere and even more so De Saunier are all about the lightness to the cues. These ecuyers are indeed NOT dealing with the heavy horse but with the lighter armed commanders horses. There is a very nice painting of the swedish king in battle during the 30 year war. VERY lightly armoured (if it even can be calles so) and lightly weaponed. EXACTLY like De Saunier describes and the plates portray.
The weaponry used to train nobility is surprising too. The handgun is to be expected as is the lance. The rest consists of sabre + smallsword and spear plus trident!
The plate is from the De Saunier book and the late 17th century riding hall still exists, even still is university prpoerty although now used as mensa.

I guess the heavy cavalry, the dragoons were trained elsewhere, were not the pupils of the ecuyers...
Truth is that the lightness the ecuyers are preaching are meant for peacetime leasure. Sure enough nobiltiy was trained in the use of weapons but the ART of riding was not to be mixed with the battle field.

Back to me and my horses, we ride for pleasure. The only ethical compromise I personally accept for this is me sitting on the animal. I thus strive for willing cooperation and shun cohersing. Here come the ecyuers again. Those start a horse on a light caveson and without spurs. I keep it that way and will just have to improve myself to better my horses.
Yes, this does ask for any gear to fit in too. No sloppiness alowed.
Now, for instance Dom Duarte would not have been burdened by my ethical constraints yet I am sure he would not have had a sword dangling nor sticking either. It just is not inherently safe which is even more important if you play for keeps that just for fum....

Peter

View user's profile
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Mon 30 Oct, 2006 10:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter;

I would argue the point that the ART of riding is not mixed with the battlefield need, as the primary purpose of a horse has always been, until recently, for combat rather than pleasure. And the lightness of touch is indeed something to be striven for, but again, given the needs of combat, and the excitement produced therein, sufficient control of the mount is an absolute necessity. I wouldn't wish to use some of the severe implements used during earlier days on my own horse, but I can see the purpose for it when considering the use of stallions in combat situations. With blood, sweat, fear and excitement all around, even the finest horses would tend to become somewhat elevated in their own levels of excitement, and difficulty in control. But with severe bits and spurs, a light touch is usually all that is needed, and was indeed striven for. Using them brutally and unnecessarily results in a ruined horse, as you would no doubt agree.

One of the major problems that was encountered during major wars, and indeed during the Wars of Religion in France, was a severe lack of trained war horses suitable for the use of the Gendarmerie. Less training, more use of severe aids for extreme conditions.

On the other hand, 19th and 20th Century Light Cavalry discovered that they really had no use for the curb bit most of the time, since they were riding long and hard across ground, rather than at someone else. In fact, Col. Frank Thompkins of the 13th US Cavalry, after his jaunt across Northern Mexico in 1916, noted that they ought to have left the curb bits in store, since they never used them, but rather the snaffle instead. They did't do much in the way of charging of course, either.

Anyway, I'm speaking from a perspective of what was used, rather than what might be considered proper and optimal today. Indeed Pluvinel would agree heartily with you, but sadly, your average horseman was of the opinion that more is better, rather than less is better.

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Nate C.




Location: Palo Alto, CA
Joined: 13 Jun 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Mon 30 Oct, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Bosman wrote:
Nate C. wrote:
I've also started riding lessons Big Grin .


You may find it usefull to read my site http://users.telenet.be/huertecilla/ before you get completely brainwashed by parforce riding.

You should not be getting sore on even a bare McClellan but unfortunately that is beyond internet to explain. I can however advise you to buy and read Anatomy of Dressage by Schusdziarra which is a sadly unique masterpiece adressing the RIDER luckily republished by your national federation.
Have fun!

Peter


Hi Peter,

This is getting a little off-topic (maybe the mods can split the riding off into another topic?) but I assure you the soreness is my problem, not the horse's. I'm just unaccustomed to riding on something so "bouncy" and therefore try to hang on way more than I should. I've actually tried jogging without stirrups and that seemed easier oddly enough. I'm improving though and we seem to be communicating better. I'm just having to learn a new language which Jack, my mount, already knows. But we seem to be coming to an understanding. I just wish I had more time to work with him outside of class.

I took a look at your site an I can see that there are some philosophical differences between camps but I think (layman's opinion here) that it's largely in method. Although I'm just starting to learn the language and improve my "feel" for riding.

Cheers,

Nate C.

Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt

If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Parrying Dagger Suspension
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2019 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum