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Joel Whitmore




Location: Simmesport, LA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Fri 08 Sep, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject: Been working on a new sword design.         Reply with quote

Well guys and gals my mind has been busy the past months and this longsword is one I want to have made. IT would be a beast measuring nearly 65" from tip to tail with a 45" blade and 16" handle (the pommel makes up the rest). I don't think it falls into any particular category. I think it would be great with a slightly hollow ground blade. I suppose in the neext few months I will be contacting smiths and such. The size of the blade kinda limits who would actually make it as some smiths I know are simply not set up to heat treat large baldes like this. Now please realize these dimensions are the ones that came into my mind and looked good when drawn to scale (which it is). However, the smith will haev a lot to say about the size and proportions to get the best sword possible. This is the custom process. You have to have faith in the mamker let the smith do his thing. Anyways, any comments would be appreciated. Some consideeration always seems to be skipped over when you are making something your imagination has a hold on. Thanks in advance guys.

Joel
P.S. I like big swords!



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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Sep, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joel;

Nice design and drawing. The side and top views of the pommel may need a little work to make clear what all the facets are intended to be like: The bevel lines in the drawing are " maybe " wrong in the top view, mostly the X which should describe the meeting of two different planes but the continuous hollow ground arcs shows no sudden change that would create the lines represented by the X. Very hard to describe in words but a line only happens when two 2D planes meet forming a line by intersecting each other at an angle.

I can sort of guess at what you are trying to get with the pommel but this is something that will need discussion with the maker you select or a nice 3D drawing or drawings showing it from at least a couple of angles: There is a nice pommel there, only the exact bevels need to be defined clearly to match what you are visualizing

The guard will also need more information about how you want it to taper in 3D and if the two small lines at the end indicate a groove or a ridge.

I like the blade and slightly hollow ground would be cool and attractive. You might consider a short, narrow but deep fuller maybe 12" to 15 " long meeting the center ridge forming a curved triangular shape echoing the shape of the blade rather than finishing in a wide rounded half circle: This is mostly an aesthetic choice and it all depends on what you prefer. I'm only mentioning it as a possible option.

Hope this is useful for you.

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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Sep, 2006 8:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

keep in mind that the langth of the grip greatly affects ballance. considering the hollow fround blade you may wont to consider a shorter grip or smaller pommel.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Sep, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Belair wrote:
keep in mind that the langth of the grip greatly affects ballance. considering the hollow fround blade you may wont to consider a shorter grip or smaller pommel.


This is where listening to the makers advice and leaving enough room for them to change things after discussion.

Once the design is settled on to avoid micromanaging too much.

Getting handling right will depend almost completely on the swordsmith's experience. Big Grin

Looking forward to seeing this one progresses. Cool

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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Sep, 2006 9:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

cool. i like the pic

what sort of cross do you have on that?
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Joel Whitmore




Location: Simmesport, LA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Fri 08 Sep, 2006 9:26 pm    Post subject: More detail         Reply with quote

Jean you are correct in that it is very dificult to dscribe a 3D object in 2D space, especially in one view. The pommel I wanted to be something intersting without getting wild. It is a complex set of curves and I already tried in once with SoftImage and didn't get it right. Sean is right. Things like handle length/blade length/mass distribution do affect measurements. I was lucky enough to work with Kevin Cashen and Craig Johnson on two previous projects. One thing they taught me is things such as dimensions and such are soemtimes dictated by the sword itself. I do want a function, high-performance sword in the end. Sean the cross has faceted ends on the quillons going to smooth/circular as you get towards the hilt. The little langet in the center is decorative and may be scultped somehow like the ones on the A&A 15th century two hander (it's a small clamshell or flower). Heck I am fully aware that the entire length of the blade may change in the process of making this a great sword. It is loosely inspired by the Svante. The combination of the long handle and beefy, hollow ground blade is gorgeous. Thanks for the comments guys and I'll let you know how this progresses. The pic below shows the pommel top view and is more in line with what I mean. Don't know if this makes it any clearer.

Joel



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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Sep, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From the perspective of one who has successfully completed CAD and blueprint mechanical engineering classes, the "x" in the top view simply means that the "3-d" complex curved surfaces of each pommel "quarter" meet in a sharp, non-filet type manner. The "x" is therefore only the top view of four smooth and graceful longitudinal intersectory curves. They terminate were ever the sharp intersection has to transition to a blended smooth surface feature. This may be a pain to understand, but I hope it is actually helpful! Happy

ps; nice preliminary design for the sword, by-the-way... (aesthetics)
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Sep, 2006 10:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote:
From the perspective of one who has successfully completed CAD and blueprint mechanical engineering classes, the "x" in the top view simply means that the "3-d" complex curved surfaces of each pommel "quarter" meet in a sharp, non-filet type manner. The "x" is therefore only the top view of four smooth and graceful longitudinal intersectory curves. They terminate were ever the sharp intersection has to transition to a blended smooth surface feature. This may be a pain to understand, but I hope it is actually helpful! Happy

ps; nice preliminary design for the sword, by-the-way... (aesthetics)


Torsten: Yup, like you just said is probably the correct way to say what I was trying to say. Wink

Joel: The way it is drawn now the X is supperfluous and shouldn't be there in the middle of the bottom of the curve of each quadrant unless there is a meeting of two planes: A smooth curve would not produce a line.

You can take out the X or you can have two curves meeting ! Think of a romanesque arch: If you look up you just see a curve. Now change the arch to a gothic one and look up and you will see the two halves of the arch meeting in a line.

If it's still hard to understand maybe I can draw what I mean in Photoshop later ? Edit your drawing maybe ?

On the PLUS side even as it's drawn now I can understand the shape you are trying to describe. Razz Laughing Out Loud

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Sep, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

O.K. here is the modified version with planes meeting in a line by slightly modifying the curves.


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Thomas Hoogendam




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PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep, 2006 5:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very interesting design, I like a lot. Especially the pommel, very well done.

Might I suggest John Lundemo of Odinblades? I'm a big fan of his work as it is, but he has tackled blades of this size before, including a odachi and a total of 3 zweihanders sofar.
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Joel Whitmore




Location: Simmesport, LA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep, 2006 6:48 am    Post subject: Think I see what you mean         Reply with quote

I understand what you re saying and maybe this is a better representation. I'll try to knock it out in 3D today if I get a chance. John over at Odin Blades is one of the people I thought of. Right now I am in the planning stages. Though I have not contacted anyone on this blade, I am sure you are looking at a couple of thousand at least for something like this. So I have to get my finances in order. One other thing that is attractive about John is is relative short turn-around times I keep hearing about. Other smiths I have thought of are probably in the 2-4 year turn-around stage.


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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep, 2006 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Think I see what you mean         Reply with quote

Joel Whitmore wrote:
...Though I have not contacted anyone on this blade, I am sure you are looking at a couple of thousand at least for something like this. So I have to get my finances in order. One other thing that is attractive about John is is relative short turn-around times I keep hearing about. Other smiths I have thought of are probably in the 2-4 year turn-around stage.

Perhaps a long lead time is not all bad, when you can use the time to get the finances squared away?

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
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Joel Whitmore




Location: Simmesport, LA
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep, 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject: 3D pommel Quick Render         Reply with quote

ok Guys here is a very quick and dirty 3D render of the pommel as I envision it. It kind of reminds me of a mace. There may be some tweaking here and there, but this is pretty much what I had in mind.

Joel



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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep, 2006 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

what are the disks you have on the sides of the pommel. are they going to stay litle disks ore are they going to be a design like a roset, or etched.
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Joel Whitmore




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PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep, 2006 1:51 pm    Post subject: Details         Reply with quote

Sean Belair wrote:
what are the disks you have on the sides of the pommel. are they going to stay litle disks ore are they going to be a design like a roset, or etched.


Perhaps etched Sean. That part I haven't given a lot of tought to. Maybe the family crest. Or, if my imagination fails, they can be left off entirely.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Details         Reply with quote

Joel Whitmore wrote:
Sean Belair wrote:
what are the disks you have on the sides of the pommel. are they going to stay litle disks ore are they going to be a design like a roset, or etched.


Perhaps etched Sean. That part I haven't given a lot of tought to. Maybe the family crest. Or, if my imagination fails, they can be left off entirely.


Interesting design Joel. I'd leave those little discs off if it were my project. I like the shape and flow of the pommel without them.
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Joel Whitmore




Location: Simmesport, LA
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep, 2006 3:11 pm    Post subject: You might be right patrick         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Joel Whitmore wrote:
Sean Belair wrote:
what are the disks you have on the sides of the pommel. are they going to stay litle disks ore are they going to be a design like a roset, or etched.


Perhaps etched Sean. That part I haven't given a lot of tought to. Maybe the family crest. Or, if my imagination fails, they can be left off entirely.


Interesting design Joel. I'd leave those little discs off if it were my project. I like the shape and flow of the pommel without them.


Yeah it does look godo woithout them. Here's another quick view between checking on my steaks on the pit!



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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: You might be right patrick         Reply with quote

Joel Whitmore wrote:
Patrick Kelly wrote:
Joel Whitmore wrote:
Sean Belair wrote:
what are the disks you have on the sides of the pommel. are they going to stay litle disks ore are they going to be a design like a roset, or etched.


Perhaps etched Sean. That part I haven't given a lot of tought to. Maybe the family crest. Or, if my imagination fails, they can be left off entirely.


Interesting design Joel. I'd leave those little discs off if it were my project. I like the shape and flow of the pommel without them.


Yeah it does look godo woithout them. Here's another quick view between checking on my steaks on the pit!



I agree also that the little disks don't work for me: Although when the pommel is finished a small semiprecious stone could work there, maybe oval, but might be too " CHICHI " ? Closely placed file work on all the main ridges are another possible decoration if not overdone.

Your 3 D rendering gives a good idea about what you want: I assume that you have some control over how rounded the ridges appear ? I would make the ridges crisper as they now look like they where over rounded when polished. It all depends though on which you prefer.

I'm glad you opted to remove the X and went for the rounded bottoms between the ridges: Those lines at the bottom would have been a nightmare to keep crisp, strait and centered in steel. A wax version that was cast might have been doable though, but grinding in those shapes ............ Very challenging if not impossible. Bottom line the rounded version looks better to me anyway.

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Joel Whitmore




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PostPosted: Sun 10 Sep, 2006 2:42 pm    Post subject: Thanks all         Reply with quote

Thanks to all who threw in comments. Jean as to the pommel ridges, I thought about making them sharp, but prehaps if you have to grab the pommel for some cuts it would be uncomfortable. There is always a line between decorative and tacky; unfortunately it varies with individuals LOL. Some filework or etchings might be a possibility on the pommel but I think I will let the smith work that out. Overall, does anyone forsee any problems with the blade itself? Proporstions off, etc? Things that are pleasing to the eye don't always work well.

Joel
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 10 Sep, 2006 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanks all         Reply with quote

Joel Whitmore wrote:
Thanks to all who threw in comments. Jean as to the pommel ridges, I thought about making them sharp, but prehaps if you have to grab the pommel for some cuts it would be uncomfortable. There is always a line between decorative and tacky; unfortunately it varies with individuals LOL. Some filework or etchings might be a possibility on the pommel but I think I will let the smith work that out. Overall, does anyone forsee any problems with the blade itself? Proporstions off, etc? Things that are pleasing to the eye don't always work well.

Joel



Well, just my personal taste but the rounding of the blade near the guard would not be my choice but it might grow on me.

Any specific reason why you like it this way ? I know that this doesn't weaken the blade since the tang is smaller still: It's just my emotional and maybe irrational perception that it weakens the blade.

A step down in width like with the Svante maybe or like a Swedish styled longsword with a short fuller in the narrow section extending a bit into the blade ? But then again I might grow to like the rounded shoulders: It may just be a question of getting used to it.

Oh, with the pommel the edges can and should be rounded but not as much as in the 3D rendering and certainly not so sharp or defined as to be sharp and uncomfortable.

Back to the blade: I like the type XVIII curved profile taper.

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Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Sun 10 Sep, 2006 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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