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David Ruff




Location: Denton TX
Joined: 18 May 2006

Posts: 144

PostPosted: Sat 12 Aug, 2006 10:28 pm    Post subject: Todays antics with crossbows and armor         Reply with quote

Took a 800lb crossbow today firing a 2.25oz missile at some home made rivited mail made from some carbon round rod. OD of the rings were made to 3/8", the wire thickness is 1/16" thick. I basically used the instructions found on the web to make a 6:1 weave of mail that is a 12" by 15" sheet. Not fun stuff to make, took me 20 days to make this sheet of it.

No idea if the weave or size is period - the wire and such is not period, i picked it as it is dense. Mainly i just wanted to fire at some rivited mail to see what would happen.


Testing on this non period setup was at 50 yards.

The the first test -

maille was set against a 20 layer coat of canvas. That was set against a 4" thick soft foam that was set against a 3/8" thick ply board. The idea was togive the target some sort of give on impact.

Result on shot one was a breech of the maille, the rings seperated tearing the rivit holes out of 3 rings. The coat was pierced and the bolt hit the plywood with enough force to stick about 1/4" into the plywood.


Next test -

3mm carbon plat that was tempered to a Rockwell of approx 48, that was set over the maille and then a light 5 layer "shirt", next was foam and then the plywood.

Result. The plate failed letting the bolt into the maille. The maile fractured 4 rings and let the bolt into the shirt and into the foam. The bolt DID NOT pass into the plywood.


For kicks i tested a 3mm plate (same steel) that was not tempered. The bolt did about the smae thing as the first plate. However the bolt DID NOT pass into the foam and was stopped at the shirt. The outside of the plate was also more deformed - pushed in more around the strike.


After that the weather turned from hot to really rainy. I am going to process the pictures and post them to my site eventually. Since they were not period item reproduction however i see little use in posting them here. More fun with just shooting stuff and telling the tale Happy


David
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sat 12 Aug, 2006 11:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David,

I do not suppose you were able to multiple trials per test item, three shots on the mail, three on the plate, etc.? I have heard before the reason the italians ditched tempering was because items could crack it and get through while untempered it will deform more but perhaps slow the beastie down and perhaps save your life. Sounds interesting and that a mail and plate combo would perhaps save your life. Was the mail tempered? You said it was carbon wire but I was unsure (Not sure if I have heard of much mail being tempered). Also what if we raise the bolt weight? Has your testing shown increased or decreased performance with heavier projectiles? Thanks for the results would be fun to watch.

I made some pieces of rivetted before. You are right a pain in the butt. 6 in 1, you are a better man than I, I got very quickly bored of making rivetted. I am actually thinking about making some again though (perhaps it has been to long),

Randall
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
Joined: 01 Jul 2006

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Sun 13 Aug, 2006 9:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David, I was curious as to why you chose a temper of 48 on what I am assuming was on the C scale. Do you know what the carbon percentage of the sample was? Also, do you happen to know what approx. guage the 3mm translates into? Maybe trying a work hardened piece of plate, as in dished, might have an even better effect in your test. Seems like a fun undertaking.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Aug, 2006 9:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

1.2mm =18gauge, 1.5mm = 16gauge well 2mm is 14 so 3mm is close to 10 maybe 8 I think.
Randall
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Aug, 2006 9:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Were medievil mailsmiths able to forge weld individual rings?

Last edited by Torsten F.H. Wilke on Sun 13 Aug, 2006 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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David Ruff




Location: Denton TX
Joined: 18 May 2006

Posts: 144

PostPosted: Sun 13 Aug, 2006 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
David,

I do not suppose you were able to multiple trials per test item, three shots on the mail, three on the plate, etc.? I have heard before the reason the italians ditched tempering was because items could crack it and get through while untempered it will deform more but perhaps slow the beastie down and perhaps save your life. Sounds interesting and that a mail and plate combo would perhaps save your life. Was the mail tempered? You said it was carbon wire but I was unsure (Not sure if I have heard of much mail being tempered). Also what if we raise the bolt weight? Has your testing shown increased or decreased performance with heavier projectiles? Thanks for the results would be fun to watch.

I made some pieces of rivetted before. You are right a pain in the butt. 6 in 1, you are a better man than I, I got very quickly bored of making rivetted. I am actually thinking about making some again though (perhaps it has been to long),

Randall




The wire is carbon based, i am not sure if it would temper as i heated the ends to flatten and drill. I would assume since i heated to red and struck it and then threw them into water some sort of hardening would be imparted? but i am not sure.

The plate used is 1075 and i heated it to critical and oil quenched, from there i baked it at 550 degrees for 3.5 hours. This is about the same process i use on the prods and it gives me a nice spring steel with a hardness of about 43 to 48. I used this as i know it gives me a hard prod and to be honest the only way i know how to do it without going to the forge to do it and tap into the smiths knowledge.

A point can be made that harden steel is "easier" to crack. I did not get to do more as we had a big rain storm come in that stopped the messing around. However the softer steel does show a greater push in around the strike where the tempered doesn't. I am guessing at the instant of impact the softer steel absorbs some energy where the tempered has less play and gives the bodkin a better bite.

The rivited maille however DOES (in my non period testing) crack rather easy when struck with the bolt. It tears the rivits out and deforms the rings. the mail jumps as well which in my gun barrel view absorbs energy as well. The sheet i shot seemed to shudder as the bolt hit it.

Also i did not write about the energy inparted on the target as a whole. It moved it back about an inch. This is telling me there is a TON (not litterally) of blunt force focused on a small area that travels into the armor, foam and plywood. If the bolt didn't get ya, the force seemed to be enough it will get your attention.


This morning i did shoot the same set up with a 107lb longbow. The plate was pierced but the arrow did not pass into the plate. The maille cracked and did let the arrow punch into it and struck the foam and plywood. I have a heavy horse bow (120 to 140lb im guessing at it buries my 120lb scale) that i will be using on it after i get some shafting in to make reasonable arrows - altho it is all i can do to pull it and i am not accurate so it will be some time before i try a shot at 50+ yards on that bow.


All in all - its non period testing, just some fun "see what will happen". We are still gearing up for some wrought iron testing with 1800's wrought iron and following the wallace collection specs. That testing results will be taken to england with me and given to the historians out there to comment on and then posted here Happy For now its just getting stuff lined up and seeing what will happen.

I have yet to punch thru 4.5mm, but a heavy 1200lb should do it if the 800lb is any indication to power curves. Oh and heavier missiles - yes upto 3.6oz fires nice off the 800lb but due to the area in which i test i keep the missiles on the lighter side to keep pass through and carry over down.the local PD station is 300 yards behind my back stop - that would be BAD lol.....


David
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Aug, 2006 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David,

AH HA! I see why less weight is better. Better to keep good with Local PD is my opinion as well. Thanks again for the info,

Randall
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Aug, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

1075 is WAY more carbon than should EVER be used in armour if you're using conventional heat treating methods; all that extra carbon does is seriously increase the brittleness. Armour isn't knife blades. One should use nothing higher than 1050, and even that is a bit much in my opinion. The worst armour failure you can have is cracking.
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David Ruff




Location: Denton TX
Joined: 18 May 2006

Posts: 144

PostPosted: Sun 13 Aug, 2006 5:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
1075 is WAY more carbon than should EVER be used in armour if you're using conventional heat treating methods; all that extra carbon does is seriously increase the brittleness. Armour isn't knife blades. One should use nothing higher than 1050, and even that is a bit much in my opinion. The worst armour failure you can have is cracking.




Well... i did say non period heheheheehe.


Its all i had laying around, i do have (and have shot) 1050, its basically the same result. I will post in time the wrought iron testing. Will see what happens with that.



David
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Aug, 2006 7:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting test even if non period, I wish you would post the pictures anyway. Happy A question... how far away were you when you were doing the shooting?
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Aug, 2006 11:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ,

I was just going to ask that!

David,

were all them at fifty yards or did it more around?

Randall
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David Ruff




Location: Denton TX
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Aug, 2006 11:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Russ,

I was just going to ask that!

David,

were all them at fifty yards or did it more around?

Randall



All benched at 50 yards.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Aug, 2006 5:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder if mild steel rings or very low carbon links would make a big differnce.
All benched at 50 yards. Very cool.

David,

Still working on my crossbow, redid the main body of it again but still peg operated. We will see. I have the notch at 12 inches is that ok?

RPM
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Aug, 2006 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Ruff wrote:


All benched at 50 yards.


Grief... and you were still punching through plate and tearing up mail... very impressive... If you were in the market for a modern crossbow what would you purchase?

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David Ruff




Location: Denton TX
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Aug, 2006 9:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
David Ruff wrote:


All benched at 50 yards.


Grief... and you were still punching through plate and tearing up mail... very impressive... If you were in the market for a modern crossbow what would you purchase?



I have heard and seen great things of the excalibres.

I own a barnett myself and love it and several modern house built. I am just finishing following in the steps of my teacher with a national crossbow assosiation target bow. Those will give 1/2" to 1" circle accuracy at 80 meters.


But my great love is the medievals, in many respects the medieval is and can be just as accurate as the modern target xbows. Have nailed many recurve prod moderns to the wall in point shooting with a medieval with 1575 type sights AND with thumbboard sights.


David
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Wed 16 Aug, 2006 6:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Ruff wrote:


But my great love is the medievals, in many respects the medieval is and can be just as accurate as the modern target xbows. Have nailed many recurve prod moderns to the wall in point shooting with a medieval with 1575 type sights AND with thumbboard sights.


David


Very cool, a testament to both your skill and to the idea that our forebears knew what they were about. How would you compare the reloading rates between modern and medieval crossbows?

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David Ruff




Location: Denton TX
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PostPosted: Wed 16 Aug, 2006 10:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
David Ruff wrote:


But my great love is the medievals, in many respects the medieval is and can be just as accurate as the modern target xbows. Have nailed many recurve prod moderns to the wall in point shooting with a medieval with 1575 type sights AND with thumbboard sights.


David


Very cool, a testament to both your skill and to the idea that our forebears knew what they were about. How would you compare the reloading rates between modern and medieval crossbows?




At a modern max pull of about 275lbs conpared to a 275lb medieval. Really about the same. In some cases the medieval faster. Heres why.


The modern rope cockers can be fast, the electric or winch ones - so so.... but a goats foot hooks in faster and is a fluid sweep pull. With the moderns you have to line the hooks up and put the string on the butt of the bow and then pull. The elcrtic or hand crank moderns are slower then a mechanical but won't tire you out as fast.


Now rope cocker modern for rope cocker period (belthook) they are about the same speed, with the modern giving better consistancy due to the duel hooks. Nothen beats the speed of someone that knows what they are doing and a good old goatsfoot. Very fast, can cock upto 450 to 500lbs and send a 3oz bolt out HARD.......


All the above is merely my opinion, and my findings with playing with moderns and reproduction periods. Your milage may or maynot be the same.



David
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Wed 16 Aug, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excellent! Thanks for the information. I need to wander down to my local archery shop and see what they have...
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Aug, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Excellent! Thanks for the information. I need to wander down to my local archery shop and see what they have...


Or get a custom period crossbow. Wink Razz

The modern stuff is fine but I kind of prefer the look of the old ones. Big Grin

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Wed 16 Aug, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Russ Ellis wrote:
Excellent! Thanks for the information. I need to wander down to my local archery shop and see what they have...


Or get a custom period crossbow. Wink Razz

The modern stuff is fine but I kind of prefer the look of the old ones. Big Grin


Well, in this case I'm not looking for historical gear but more something along the lines of something to plink at targets with. It would seem reasonable to think that modern stuff would be a little more cost effective then custom stuff with custom bolts... Happy

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