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Thimo Savbotta




Location: Virginia
Joined: 30 Jul 2006

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 11:03 am    Post subject: War-arrow bodkin         Reply with quote

My friend in Czec-Repeblic sent me this in airmail. It is made my a blacksmith from his town near Prague. This is the type I've been wanting for months now. It is the type of bodkin meant to go against armour and thick wood. I can not wait to try it out.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/Jarosbodkin2.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/jarosbodkin1.jpg
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J. Bedell




Location: Maryland, USA
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pretty wicked, I can't wait to see what kind of havoc you wreak with it.
The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Thimo Savbotta




Location: Virginia
Joined: 30 Jul 2006

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a soft target I'm working on at the moment, until I recieve the period gear to test on.

4" foamboard in center wrapped in 4 layers of heavy gauge cotton canvas, then cotton sweatshirt, then wrapped arround with a thick leather powerlifting belt. Hey it a start.LOL

I'm waiting for the Glue to dry on the arrow at the moment.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/softtarget1.jpg


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/softtarget-2.jpg
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J. Bedell




Location: Maryland, USA
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not bad for an improvised target!
The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Thimo Savbotta




Location: Virginia
Joined: 30 Jul 2006

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

arrow bounced off with 75# bow at 50 yards. Not what I was expecting.

I'm making a target out of a 50# bag of rice, wrapped in the same materials and useing a 100# next.

cloth padding has my attention already.
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J. Bedell




Location: Maryland, USA
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmmm Not what I was expecting either. Padded armor is very good, but I had my doubts as to how good. I'm wondering if a 100# will do it or if it will take something even heavier. After all, thick padded armor is made for this kind of stuff.

Can't wait to hear about the rest of the trials.

-James

The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In the GReat Warbow there is a section on armour penetration with a 150 lb longbow. I assume once into the 100's the fabrics will start to lessen in effectiveness from their findings but it had to have worked in some cases or it would not be armour Big Grin

Look forward to your test,

RPM
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Thimo Savbotta




Location: Virginia
Joined: 30 Jul 2006

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It did penetrate with the 100#

I did three shots one against the target you see in the pics. A second at a sack of rice wrapped tightly in maskingtape and set in front of the tarket above. and one with a 1/2" plywood sheild in front of the sack of rice.

The arrow went through the padding target 18"

The arrow went through the sack of rice and put a 2" hole in the padding behind it.

The arrow went through the plywood sheild and the sack of rice.

Had to re-glue the bodkin after the plywood test. The glue really never dried the 1st time. I just got impatient.

So latter when the glue dries I'm going to redo the same tests with my camera-person (wife) handy.
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Thimo Savbotta




Location: Virginia
Joined: 30 Jul 2006

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 3:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok the jokes on me. I was supposed to sharpen it, I've just now been informed. Well acctualy the instructions for sharpening were right under my nose but I was too in a hurry to read it. LOL

Now I'm going out to sharpen.
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Thimo Savbotta




Location: Virginia
Joined: 30 Jul 2006

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here test on on redneck padding.

http://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosa...=juice.flv
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 4:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thimo;

Sharpness should be the most critical thing with fabric and leather IMHO.

If you have ever cut leather to make something with it, it makes a great difference how sharp the blade you use is.

I've mentioned it before on other topic threads that with a fresh razor sharp exacto leather offers very little resistance to a cut. Dull the blade just a bit to papercutting sharp and one has to work hard to cut leather. With a really dull blade leather is almost impossible to pierce.

In many ways cloth armour may behave similarly: With a dull point one must break fibres or push a hole by displacing the weave needing enormously more force to do than cutting it. With a sharp blade the fibres are cut.

When good maille, even if not historically identical to period maille, is used over a soft padding I would think that as long as the maille isn't pierced the most important thing the padding should be is to be very soft and offer the least possible rigid support to the maille. In this case the maille can't be cut until it stop moving and after a lot of the energy has been wasted just moving and twisting it around.

Without maille over fabric the cut resistance of the fibres does the same thing as long as it is pushed back in a mushy way.
Once cutting occurs fabric maille becomes much less effective. Again how sharp the arrow point is should make a great difference to the results. A dull point won't pierce fabric armour even with the strongest bow if the arrow head is dull at any realistic velocities for arrows.

Anyway that is my theory and not a statement of fact. Wink

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Thimo Savbotta




Location: Virginia
Joined: 30 Jul 2006

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

yes. Sharpness is a must. I had never handled this type of bodkin before and it seemed plenty sharp, but it had never went past the blacksmiths hammer stage. Ha ha.

Here is what I'm doing presently. I figure this needs to be killed 1st, if possible, before spending alot on the other stuff.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/01jucied-1.jpg


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/01jucied-2.jpg
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J. Bedell




Location: Maryland, USA
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 5:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pretty good penetration for not being sharpened.

Now lets see what happens when the glue is dry and the bodkin is sharp Big Grin
I think you will have much better penetration....

Keep the photos coming!
-James

The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Thu 03 Aug, 2006 10:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I hate when you are doing something and that happenes. I accidentally locked a display case at the museum and it was open so I could not close it.... then we could not find the key..... some days I feel stupider than others. Big Grin Thanks for the info.

Randall
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Thimo Savbotta




Location: Virginia
Joined: 30 Jul 2006

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Fri 04 Aug, 2006 6:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok... It wasn't the effect I was hoeping for but it does encourage me now to go on with the tests and purchase authentic materials.

I first shot a normal target arrow with 450 grain feild point out of a 115# longbow. Had to dodge the debris.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/01-busted-1.jpg



Next I used the "Sharpened" bodkin. It went in about 2-1/2". Not as deep as I wanted, but enough to encourage me to proceed onto the real-stuff.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/01-busted-2.jpg



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/01-busted-3.jpg


I do not think 115# is enough bow though. It was my most seasoned of the batch. My heavbiest one is 135#, but it is still pretty green, (less-than 8 months cut elm.)

I truely believe it will need to be done with an exceptionally strong bow with superior cast. So I got my work cut out for me.

All shots were done at 65 yards.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Fri 04 Aug, 2006 7:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

what is the arrow weights you are using? are they all the same? Also have you dne distance with the 'armour piercing' head?

RPM
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J. Bedell




Location: Maryland, USA
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Fri 04 Aug, 2006 7:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is that a sheet of metal you are using as a target?
If so, then going through only 2 inches isn't bad considering that bodkin is made for going through mail links, which I believe it would do with relative ease even at longer ranges. Plate armor maybe not so easy....

These are some awesome tests, can't wait to see the rest.
-James

p.s. I think you are right, a stronger bow may need to be used.

The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Thimo Savbotta




Location: Virginia
Joined: 30 Jul 2006

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Fri 04 Aug, 2006 7:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is a lid to my outdoor pig cooker. Cast-Iron.

I was just informed once again by my mentor and friend that I still need to flatten the sides of the bodkin. He say's it should go through more, if not all the way. So off to the grinder and files.

Thanks guys for the nice words. This stuff gets me stoked. Can't wait to get into the whole sword thing soon as well.
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Thimo Savbotta




Location: Virginia
Joined: 30 Jul 2006

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Fri 04 Aug, 2006 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randell. the shaft is 1/2" Oak, 35"L. the overall weight of arrow with bodkin is 1100 grains. But let me check to make certain. These shots were only from 65 yards. I need to wait until tomarrow when I can drive out more in the country for better distance.
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Thimo Savbotta




Location: Virginia
Joined: 30 Jul 2006

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Fri 04 Aug, 2006 8:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a pic of the redneck-sheild. The pig-cooker lid. I wish I knew for sure what the metal-properties were on something like this, in comparison to medeival armour. Does anybody has a guess?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/01jucied-2.jpg
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