Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Makers and Manufacturers Talk > advice from members requested Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Hank Reinhardt
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 4:21 pm    Post subject: advice from members requested         Reply with quote

OK, you guys have been really good about answering some of my questions. Now I have a couple of more for you. I really would like your opinions. I will gather them all up, and then make a decisions
First. We plan on making spears. All types. The shafts are expensive to ship, and you can buy them easily. 1 1/8th shafts can be purchased at various drapery and hardware stores. Almost always they are of poplar, which is a light, but very tough wood. Usually the shafts are fluted, sometimes spiralled. I've used them a lot, and have never had any problem, and have been pretty tough on them at times. The other choice is 1 inch diamter. This is readily available, and usually you can get it in various hardwoods, ash, hickory, oak, etc. (hickory not being very authentic, but very tough) Neither of these sizes are paticularly accurate, since spear shaft were in variour sizes and not standardized, but this 2006, and we have to standardise to a degree. The question is which would you like to see available, 1 /18th or 1 inch?
I am also checking out the possiblity of making a Viking Sword with a true blood eddy pattern, complete with high carbon steel edges. I know it would not be cheap, but right now I have no real information on cost. ACtually I am not sure it can be done, but am willing to give it a strong shot if there is any interest in a highly authentic Viking sword. Opinions?

Hank Reinhardt
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
David Welch




Location: Knoxville TN
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Reading list: 14 books

Posts: 26

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, you can shave 1 1/8th" shafts to 1", but you can't really make 1" shafts bigger. Happy
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 6:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Welch wrote:
Well, you can shave 1 1/8th" shafts to 1", but you can't really make 1" shafts bigger. Happy


Well you can make a small shaft fit a larger socket by gluing cord to the shaft until it fits or just a little bigger and sanding it down to a close fit.

Since I'm not talking historically accurate assembly here and the cord would not be visible under the spear socket.

An 1/8" difference should be easy enough to compensate for and have a good strong assembly.

Now using a 3/4" shaft using this method for a 1 3/4" socket might work but would look sort of VERY wrong.

So, for me the larger size of socket would be my choice.

A large variety of types of spears and pollarms head of decent quality at somewhere between $100 to even $500 for a complex design would be at an attractive price point for me. I put $500 on the high side but this would have to be of very good design and quality materials, the lower end $100 would have to be at least capable of taking a good edge.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

Location: San Francisco
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Likes: 29 pages
Reading list: 327 books

Spotlight topics: 32
Posts: 11,398

Feedback score: 100%
(7 total ▮ 100% positive)
PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Well you can make a small shaft fit a larger socket by gluing cord to the shaft until it fits or just a little bigger and sanding it down to a close fit. Since I'm not talking historically accurate assembly here and the cord would not be visible under the spear socket. An 1/8" difference should be easy enough to compensate for and have a good strong assembly.

Just a note to say that I've done this in the past and it works surprisingly well.

Still, I'd prefer the smaller size socket, as it is easier to taper the shaft down to fit.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Darwin Todd





Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 90

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 7:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greetings Hank,
First of all let me thank you sincerly for wanting to make spears! Big Grin I think the market has been missing them for too long.
Second, I think you are asking what size to make the spearhead sockets, and let the customer find thier own shaft locally ,yes? If that is the case I would say make the sockets the size closest to historicaly accurate, even if it varies from model to model. If I am going to taper a shaft to fit anyway , 1/8th of an inch either way won't make much difference to me.
My biggest complaint with a couple of older MRL spears I have is that thier socket size was too big and as a result the whole spear was heavier than it should be because of the fatter shaft. Just a few years ago most "historicly accurate" replica swords were too heavy and balanced poorly compared to antiques. Today you can buy a sword that matches an antique in handling and appearance. Do we not want our spears up to the same level of quality and accuracy as our swords?
View user's profile Send private message
Shane Allee
Industry Professional



Location: South Bend, IN
Joined: 29 Aug 2003

Posts: 506

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 7:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For the types of spears that I like I would rather see the 1" sockets. Curtain rods seem too big and bulky to me.

Shane
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
David Martin




Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Joined: 11 Apr 2005

Posts: 162

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 8:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My vote is for 1 1/8" socket for thrusting / hewing spears. The 1" socket would be fine for throwing spears. My personal preference is to err on the side of strength, so if the choice is strictly dichotomous, I'd go with the 1 1/8".

I'm glad to read that you're making spears. I think there is a real dearth of affordable, quality spears on the market.

Best wishes in this endeavor,


David

"When war-gods meet to match their might,
who can tell the bravest born?
Many a hero never made a hole
in another man's breast."

- Sigurd, The Lay of Fafnir
View user's profile Send private message
J. Bedell




Location: Maryland, USA
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 226

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My vote is for the 1 1/8" socket. I do agree that a 1" socket for throwing spears is a good idea though.

Also, I would absolutely love to see you make a highly authentic Viking sword. Even if the price is high, I would really love to see it done.

-James

The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Dustin R. Reagan





Joined: 09 May 2006

Posts: 264

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 15 Jul, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: advice from members requested         Reply with quote

Hank Reinhardt wrote:
ACtually I am not sure it can be done, but am willing to give it a strong shot if there is any interest in a highly authentic Viking sword. Opinions?


I would definitely be interested in highly authentic viking swords...though my personal cap I would be willing to spend on such a sword would be approx. $1,700. At this price, though, i would expect both authentic blade construction as well as authentic hilt/pommel contruction (two piece rivetted pommel).

Dustin
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathon Janusz





Joined: 20 Nov 2003

Posts: 467

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 8:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Unless the extra 1/8" provides a considerable increase in strength or durability, I've got to agree with Nathan - the smaller socket makes it easier for folks to use either haft.

Maybe if some of the jousters (running the games) or the WMA folks training in spear could comment it would be useful. I figure these are the folks who most likely have used (and possibly broken) their spears most extensively Happy
View user's profile Send private message
Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Posts: 790

Feedback score: 100%
(1 total ▮ 100% positive)
PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In The Archaeology of Weapons, Oakeshott states that most of the Migration era spear shafts found in one of the bog deposits (I think it was Vimose, or something along those lines) were around one inch in diameter. That would incline me to go with the smaller diameter socket personally. Also, I was playing around with my MRL Long Bladed Hewing spear mounted on a one inch shaft, and that seemed plenty stout to me. To my mind, all that a 1 1/8" socket will really manage is to make the finished piece too heavy.

Just my two cents.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
View user's profile Send private message
Addison C. de Lisle




Location: South Carolina
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Likes: 27 pages

Posts: 614

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: advice from members requested         Reply with quote

Hank Reinhardt wrote:

I am also checking out the possiblity of making a Viking Sword with a true blood eddy pattern, complete with high carbon steel edges. I know it would not be cheap, but right now I have no real information on cost. ACtually I am not sure it can be done, but am willing to give it a strong shot if there is any interest in a highly authentic Viking sword. Opinions?


Please do! I would love to see this piece, even if there's no way I'd be able to afford it Cry
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Shane Allee
Industry Professional



Location: South Bend, IN
Joined: 29 Aug 2003

Posts: 506

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In the last month I have shaped and broke more javelin shafts than I even care to think about, but it has been a learning experience for sure. Tried a variety of woods as well and got to see some differences there. These javelin shafts were starting off at 3/4" and 7/8", being tapered a good bit to the small sockets. Poplar would not hold up to the stresses from being thrown, not to mention being lighter made it more tricky to balance. So really if strength is a concern for people they will see much more of a difference in picking the right wood to use over increasing shaft and socket sizes.

Shane
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

Feedback score: 100%
(1 total ▮ 100% positive)
PostPosted: Tue 18 Jul, 2006 10:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll be one of the holdouts for the larger diameter, at least on any later-period spear sockets (earlier than about 1450 is out of my area of interest). Although it's true that Froissart's Chronicles shows late 15th. c. spears with thin, apparently flexible hafts, almost all I'm seeing after ca. 1500 (in combat weapons, as opposed to ceremonial arms etc.) are massive military spears, ox tongues, early partisans and boar spears. These have very robust hafts and are mounted with a flush surface between haft and socket. In other words, the top of the haft is shaped to create a step on which the edge of the socket sits. It's possible this was done purely for aesthetic reasons, but that doesn't ring true to me. These are still weapons, even at this late date, and the examples shown here are relatively plain examples. If there must be a standard size for all periods, I suppose the smallest historically appropriate size is the most efficient ( Sad ). It is easier to taper the 1.25" haft down to size than to build up a smaller haft in a way that isn't really stable or accurate.

In addition to World Peace, my great hope is that people will take more time to properly mount their spear heads. Laughing Out Loud Taper that haft! Cut that step! Rivet or pin that socket!



 Attachment: 28 KB
leger2bt.jpg


 Attachment: 59.85 KB
IMG_2270.JPG


 Attachment: 38.41 KB
spear.jpg

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

Feedback score: 100%
(1 total ▮ 100% positive)
PostPosted: Tue 18 Jul, 2006 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll also point out an interesting feature of many late military spears and boar spears. Note that the "small" end of the socket (where it meets the blade) is not much smaller than the "large" end. Note also that the sockets look unreasonably short. It looks to me like these heads were made in the same fashion as halberds, with leaves folded around a mandrel to create a socket within the body of the blade. So, I'm thinking that the hafts of these weapons extend some distance into the blade. All this would make for a very strong mounting.
Don't you just love the hollow grind/socket ridge of these weapons? These are truly terrifying-looking spears. Nothing light or elegant about them. Brutal.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jeremy V. Krause




Location: Buffalo, NY.
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,499

Feedback score: 100%
(1 total ▮ 100% positive)
PostPosted: Wed 19 Jul, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean,

I read with interest your comments that historically, the shafts of spears were formed with a "step" causing the socket and shaft to be flush. Do you know if this was done in earlier centuries such as the 11th,12th, and 13th? I would like to have my spear and potential polearms finishhed in an appropriate manner. My A&A 12th c. spear is fitted in the usual simple manner of A&A spears i.e. not flush with no bolts or nails. Is this method accurate? I also have a question regarding the edges/point of my spear- the point is sharp but there are no cutting edges to speak of on this spear. Is this accurate?

Thanks,
Jeremy
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Wed 19 Jul, 2006 12:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
Hi Sean,

I read with interest your comments that historically, the shafts of spears were formed with a "step" causing the socket and shaft to be flush. Do you know if this was done in earlier centuries such as the 11th,12th, and 13th? I would like to have my spear and potential polearms finished in an appropriate manner. My A&A 12th c. spear is fitted in the usual simple manner of A&A spears i.e. not flush with no bolts or nails. Is this method accurate? I also have a question regarding the edges/point of my spear- the point is sharp but there are no cutting edges to speak of on this spear. Is this accurate?

Thanks,
Jeremy


Well, I've managed to sharpen mine a bit to a useable edge but with the thick spine and narrow blade it's never going to be much of a slashing or cutting type pollarm. My A & A Viking spear is more like a knife or dagger blade on a stick and is thinner and would have a bit more potential being used to cut against an un-armoured foe or an un-armoured body part.

Still a spear is mostly a thrusting weapon: One might compare then to Rapiers with varyingly effective cutting edges, the 12th century spear being closer to the thrust only ones and the Viking spear like a more sword bladed cut & thrust type.

As for the step I don't know what was used in period. One thing I wonder about is whether any leather or cord warping was ever used commonly with spears ? Warping the shaft of a spear with cord, maybe glued on, should reinforce a spear shaft from splitting and keep one together even if it split lengthways ?

What is related to your question about the shaft being flush with the socket is that with the stepped down shaft a cord binding covering the entire shaft would give a flush appearance to this spear: Thus the question about binding with cord being know historically or not ?

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Wed 19 Jul, 2006 10:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a thought. Any chance of getting some sort of very cheap spearheads for simple javelins/darts? Maybe even tanged so we can get them extra cheap?
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

Feedback score: 100%
(1 total ▮ 100% positive)
PostPosted: Thu 20 Jul, 2006 6:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the flush mounting looks more "serious" and authentic, but I don't know about its appropriateness for earlier spear forms. Judging only from the development of other polearms, I would guess that spear hafting methods would have gone from less to more complex. That certainly doesn't apply to Roman pilae--the most complex spear/javelin I can think of-- so my guess probably isn't worth much. Confused As far as edge sharpness is concerned, I think it does make sense to think of spear blades like we think of sword blades. Broad and thin=sharp edges, narrow and thick=less sharp. By the way, it looks to me like the consensus on use of all polearms is that they are most effective in the thrust.

A few years ago I was fortunate enough to stumble upon a reenactment of the Battle of Hastings at Battle Abbey. In the freestyle mock combat, a spearman held off several swordsmen for a surprisingly long time. This was not choreographed--the swordsmen just couldn't get past the point. That really opened my eyes to the value of the spear, even over the halberd. It's relatively lightweight (so also fast,) durable, inexpensive, easy to make, frugal with limited resources (iron) and free with abundant ones (wood), gives the advantage of range, and is very effective in combat. It's almost a perfect weapon.

Hank: I hope we'll see some late spearheads from your new venture!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Makers and Manufacturers Talk > advice from members requested
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum