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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 7:41 am    Post subject: Scottish shields from 1000-1600?         Reply with quote

I'm interisted in Scottish shields from 1000-1600. Are we still looking at the Targe, or was that a later shield? I have yet to be disappointed in the information provided by this forum, even with such a vague question.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: Scottish shields from 1000-1600?         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
I'm interisted in Scottish shields from 1000-1600. Are we still looking at the Targe, or was that a later shield? I have yet to be disappointed in the information provided by this forum, even with such a vague question.


George,
Please see our article on shields. It notes that the targe was in use by the 12th century.

I'd imagine Scottish nobles of the 13th and 14th centuries, especially those with estates in England, would have been outfitted for war as the rest of the English were, with shields like heater shields.

Happy

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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Scottish shields from 1000-1600?         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
George Hill wrote:
I'm interisted in Scottish shields from 1000-1600. Are we still looking at the Targe, or was that a later shield? I have yet to be disappointed in the information provided by this forum, even with such a vague question.


George,
Please see our article on shields. It notes that the targe was in use by the 12th century..


Thank you. Somehow I missed seeing that one when I was looking through the articles. Sad Now I'll read it, nonetheless, what I'm rather hoping for is to learn about everything other then the targe. Say, center grip bucklers, etc.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: Scottish shields from 1000-1600?         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
Thank you. Somehow I missed seeing that one when I was looking through the articles. Sad Now I'll read it, nonetheless, what I'm rather hoping for is to learn about everything other then the targe. Say, center grip bucklers, etc.


I would think that people in more metropolitan areas (areas with trade ties to England and the Continent) probably would have used shield types popular in England & Europe. There is a lot more in that article than just info on the targe. Happy

Happy

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David Wilson




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From the evidence (effigies, grave slabs, seals, etc.) it seems that the heater shield was common among Scottish Knights. I would also assume that the development of the shield in Scotland (at least in the Lowlands and Borders) was similar to the development of shields in England and the Continent, from the large round shield and kite shield (think Bayeux Tapestry) to the smaller heater.
I am not sure of the provinance of the targe. I believe the Irish had a similar shield. Whether the style was invented in Ireland or Scotland though, I don't know....

David K. Wilson, Jr.
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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 10:12 am    Post subject: Drummond         Reply with quote

Take a look at Drummond's Ancient Scottish Weapons. There are quite a few (if I may use this expression) "proto-targes" which show a pretty clear delineation from the wooden Norse shields to something more distinctly Scottish. While I agree with the statement that the Scottish knightly class probably based their armament on the continental styles, the targe was what I would think of, at least, as another class of shield. The shape and boss arrangement of the Norse shield is very much in keeping with the artictecture and style of the targe. Plus, Drummond also illustrated several burial excavations of early targes. I think this source will be a big help in your study. George Osborne
"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
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Geoff Wood




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 1:02 pm    Post subject: lewis chess men         Reply with quote

I think the Lewis chess set was Norwegian in origin, but given the role of Scandinavians in Scotland it could have a reasonable claim to be representative of part of the heritage. That would be kites and kites with flat tops around 1150 -1200(from memory).
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Rickard Wingaard





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PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2007 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I might just as well post my question in this forum. I had a hard time deciding which of the many threads dealing with targes was more appropriate to post in.

I'm quite interested in these so called "proto-targes", but I haven't managed to get my hands on Ancient Scottish Weapons (and besides... it's a very old book... I hope that there has been some development in this field since then). That the targes are descended from viking shields is not exactly what I would call surprising. But there is a difference between the Norse shields and the targes, and that is the grip. Most targes seem to have a grip similar to that of heater shields, with the arm strapped to the shield. The Norse shields have a boss and a centre grip. When did this change occur? I would think it was quite late, since the boss remained in place... on the other hand... the Scots were a conservative people and I guess the could have kept it just "because it's supposed to look like that!".

I'm mostly interested in ca. 1300 targes ("proto-targes"? Think Scottish War of Independence). How old is the earliest surviving targe? Do we have any monuments? I would very much like to know from where the idea of the 12th century targe comes, I've never seen a targe earlier than 17th century.

What I have seen, however, is a bunch of Norwegian bucklers with a boss and various metal fittings, around 45 cm in diameter (targe size... I'd say) dated 1300... Shield cousins, perhaps?
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Kevin P Molloy




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PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Wilson wrote:
From the evidence (effigies, grave slabs, seals, etc.) it seems that the heater shield was common among Scottish Knights. I would also assume that the development of the shield in Scotland (at least in the Lowlands and Borders) was similar to the development of shields in England and the Continent, from the large round shield and kite shield (think Bayeux Tapestry) to the smaller heater.
I am not sure of the provinance of the targe. I believe the Irish had a similar shield. Whether the style was invented in Ireland or Scotland though, I don't know....


Well since you mentioned the Irish, I have yet to find a picture of an actual "Irish Targe". Can anyone show me one or where to find it on the internet? I would be espescially interested in an "Irish Proto Targe" from the 13th or 14th century or even 15th century. Any help would be appreciated.

Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From the levy laws, it would seem that the british didn't prioritze shields for their levies; While the scandinavians, who based their armies around their levies, demanded a spear, axe and shield from even the lowliest freemen, the british, both english and scots, only demande a bow or spear.

This fits rather well with the Norwegian account of the Battle of Largs in 1263, where the Norwegians where very impressed with the equipment of the Scottish cavalry (not being used to heavy cav at all), but considered the infantry to be poorly equiped "mostly with spears or sparth axes, or bows"

The scandinavian style equipment of the Gallowglass, however, included a kite or heather shield.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Rickard Wingaard





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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well. That's interesting.

Perhaps the origin of the targe lies in the west, on the Isles? But I'd still think that there would be some pictoral evidence for it... since they were so good at carving effigies. But perhaps the effigies show men who wouldn't have worn this type of shield, but rather a more continental heater shield.

To sum it up: I'd like some good old-fashioned documentation. Pictures, preserved examples, excavated material... anything will do... I'm not picky. Wink
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

well, small round shields where in use in Scotland since the days of the Picts. The Viking shields that have been found, however, have been of the large 85cm+ variety.

I delive there are other threads on the targe on the forum thoug;
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ight=targe


On a side note, based on my experience with small round shields are not all that great compared to larger shields. They are, however, a lot easier to slog around. If you are engaging in small scale warfare, like the scottish inter-clan raiding, ease of transport and beeing able to have the shield with you at all times would be more important.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Rickard Wingaard





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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 10:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yep, Elling. There are other threads, it's just that I picked the one (out of many) that I thought would be the most fitting (I must admit that I missed the other one since there were so many). I think that's a bit annoying... so many threads essentially dealing with the same thing.

Well. On the other hand, I found nothing conclusive in the other thread either, except for a theory that the targe reappeared in Scotland in the middle of the 17th century, but that was contradicted by a targe dated 1620-something. So, back on square one... And I think I'd benefit from getting that book written by Drummond... but it still seems to me that it would be awfully nice if someone on this forum could tell me if there's anything nearly conclusive in it, so that I won't have to buy it myself.
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kevin P Molloy wrote:
Well since you mentioned the Irish, I have yet to find a picture of an actual "Irish Targe". Can anyone show me one or where to find it on the internet? I would be espescially interested in an "Irish Proto Targe" from the 13th or 14th century or even 15th century. Any help would be appreciated.


There is one pictured in an Osprey book about the Border Reivers. And then there's the one in the portrait of Neil O'Neil of Tyrone.

Elling,
My brother tells me the Norwegians had a sheild the same size as a targe that was called a "targa". I think the term "buklare" might have been used to describe the same shield. I've attached a picture of one. It's loosely dated between the 13th and the 15th century.

Cheers,
Henrik



 Attachment: 50.06 KB
Buklare.jpg
"Buklare"

Constant and true.
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Johan S. Moen




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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2007 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik Bjoern Boegh wrote:
Kevin P Molloy wrote:
Well since you mentioned the Irish, I have yet to find a picture of an actual "Irish Targe". Can anyone show me one or where to find it on the internet? I would be espescially interested in an "Irish Proto Targe" from the 13th or 14th century or even 15th century. Any help would be appreciated.


There is one pictured in an Osprey book about the Border Reivers. And then there's the one in the portrait of Neil O'Neil of Tyrone.

Elling,
My brother tells me the Norwegians had a sheild the same size as a targe that was called a "targa". I think the term "buklare" might have been used to describe the same shield. I've attached a picture of one. It's loosely dated between the 13th and the 15th century.

Cheers,
Henrik


That's one of the bucklers from Oldsaksamlingen in Oslo. It's about 35-40 centimeters in diameter i believe. I think it has been dated to the 13th century based on some runic inscriptions, but I can't remember exactly...

I've attached a picture of all 4 originals.

Johan Schubert Moen



     Attachment: 75.35 KB
    norske buklere.gif

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    Elling Polden




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    PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2007 5:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

    Buklare, is you guess it, bucklers. They are center gripped small round shields, and do not have enarmes like the targe. They where also slightly smaller on average.

    Neither where they regarded "combat" shields: Peremiter guards and high ranking retainers where allowed to carry them instead of shields, in peace time.

    the Main Battle Shield, however, where a large kite or heater, or a large round shield if you go back towards the viking ages.

    "this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
    -Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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    Thomas McDonald
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    PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2007 6:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

    Attached is the Sir Neil O'Neill (c.1680) image that Henrik mentioned.
    (.... and yes that is Japanese armour there :-)

    Mac



     Attachment: 78.72 KB
    Sir Neil O'Neill  1680.jpg


    'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
    XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
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    Thomas McDonald
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    PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2007 6:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

    A couple of other pieces attributed to the Irish.
    Mac



     Attachment: 24.99 KB
    irishtarge 2.jpg


     Attachment: 70.64 KB
    irishtarge3.jpg


     Attachment: 55.15 KB
    irishtarge.jpg


    'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
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    Rickard Wingaard





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    PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2007 11:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

    Aah, no we're talking. Thanks everyone who posted pictures. The Norwegian bucklers are the exact ones I was referring to earlier. And I think "targa" is the base of targe and target, but I don't know if the Norwegian laws concerning the leithang and other armour requirements mention the actual word "targa". It might have disappeared at the time, replaced by... well... "bucklari" or something similar (my Old Norse is somewhat rusty). Maybe good sir Elling knows? Wink

    Mac: The last shields are made of bronze, aren't they? I'd hazard a guess they're also Bronze Age? The targe is really nice, 16th century is quite early, but I don't know how reliable the dating is... And well, the picture of Neil O'Neil is fairly new, compared to preserved targes. I guess it won't be of much use in search of the oldest targe preserved. I would hardly refer to that as a "proto-targe". Looks more like a real targe to me.
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    Kevin P Molloy




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    PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2007 5:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

    Thomas McDonald wrote:
    Attached is the Sir Neil O'Neill (c.1680) image that Henrik mentioned.
    (.... and yes that is Japanese armour there :-)

    Mac



    The targe in the O'Neill painting looks very large does anyone have any more info on it?

    Kevin Patrick Molloy
    "The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
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