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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jun, 2006 7:38 am    Post subject: Horseback         Reply with quote

Since knights used to ride horseback I assume swordfighting was about horseriding too. Does any of you know which source, either modern or old, covers this?
I have Dom Duartes masterpiece Bem Cabalgar.

I am actualy not looking to develop or improve swordsmanship but riding skills.

Thank you,

Peter

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Eric Allen




Location: Texas
Joined: 04 Feb 2006

Posts: 207

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jun, 2006 8:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know Hans Talhoffer's 15th-century fechtbuch has a section on fighting on horseback. There's a modern publication of it around.
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jun, 2006 9:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gracias Eric,

Do you mean this one? http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1853675822...p;n=266239

I have that one on order together with one by Oakeshott on the knightly horse. Any more suggestions are welcome.
Gaspard de Saunier has a bit about sworsfighting too but that is basicly about WHAT to use and not the how. Nice and clear drawings of both a smallsword and a sabre that he used as cavalry arms.

Peter
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Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jun, 2006 9:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter;

Bravo! Glad to hear that there are some others out there who are interested in historical horsemanship!

If you already have Bem Cabalgar by Dom Duarte, you are well on your way. I don't think that there is anything better or more complete out there on 15th Century horsemanship. For 17th Century horsemanship there is a tome by Gervaise Markham on Horsemanship, but it's rather difficult to find (and the title is a mile long, too). It's available on-line through many libraries though. But for getting into many of the how's and wherefore's of horsemanship, one of the best available is Antoine dePluvinel's The Maneige Royal. It was published first in 1623, though it was written some years earlier and the author was in his prime during the later years of the 16th Century. That he attended a school in equestrian arts with Sir Phillip Sydney (a poet in the court of Elizabeth I of England) in Italy says a great deal about where he learned his skills, too. The book is available in reprint and often for sale on Ebay, and probably via Alibris and Amazon as well. P;uvinel deals a lot with pure horsemanship, but also gets into details of managing the lance, using it in the joust, etc. Very interesting stuff.

Although I have yet to manage to read the entire book, there are some interesting bits and pieces in Kriegkunst zu Pferde (aka Arte Militaire a' Cheval) by J. J. von Walhausen , 1616. Mostly to do with the later Pistolier tactics, but there is some information on lancers, which though not dead by this time were definitely on the wane. Same with John Cruso's Militarie Instructions for the Cavall'rie (1632). He details the arms and armour, even horses of the various types of Cavalry, discusses some of the techniques behind the weapons, but little in the form of actual horsmanship. For that, Gervaise Markham beats all hands down.

I hope that this is of some service to you in your search. I shall be happy to help you in any ways I can to further you in your quest for proper historical horsemanship.

Allons!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jun, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Buenas Gordon,

All the renaissance ecuyers are part of my library and training. Present day literature about bowshooting from horseback too. Not as easy as it looks though...
Of the ecuyers De Saunier is the only one who includes fighting training. He was not by coincidance also the only one who had actual war-experience.
After the French Revolution cavalry is transformed by the widespread use of the fire-arm by the infantry and reduced to the forward charge. No real horsemanship whatsoever unfortunately. A left-over from the training excesizes is the sport of tent-pegging that has not died out. Not easy either.

What I am hoping for is to find anything on riding the horse without reins or indirect reins and still being able to move around without giving unwanted aids. I guess you need good sword-fighting skills combined with a truely indepandant seat.

Anther line I would like to follow-up is the ba-jutsu. Unfortunately only practised in France at the moment.

I hope Talhoffer will add knowledge to what I read in Bem Cabalgar.

Saludos,

Peter

p.s. added your site to my favourites. I am going out now with my stallion but will go through it in detail when I am back.
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Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jun, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don Peter;

Ah. Well, sadly there isn't a huge amount that I am aware of which gets into the details of manoever on horseback without reins, etc. for using the sword and lance (or pistol for that matter). I'm sure it's out there, but not in my library.

There are certainly many books on horsemanship which deal with the various aspects of such riding, however, so I'm sure you shall be able to discover them eventually.

Allons!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jun, 2006 12:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bien Gordon, back from the short cool down session. Yesterday was a bit too exciting due to external factor WAY beyond our controll. This mornings ride cleared his mind (and mine) and I needed to get his focus right for the night so we can go training fruitfully again tomorrow.

Looked at the site and several links. A pity you are all organised across too large a pond as I guess I could learn a LOT over there in exchange for techniques concerning riding unbridled.
Your mention on the Low Countries is quite a coincidence as I was born there and am quite familiar with the cavalry (im)possibilities there from the Batavian revolt onwards.

I will chase some of the leads you gave too so thank you for those as well.

I have seen mentioned there are jousting organisations in Europe but without naming them. I am not aware of any horse mounted martial arts save for bow shooting and bajutsu. Do you have a pointer?

Over here in Spain fihgting cattle are tested with a large pole called a garrocha and this involves a seperate dressage, even international competition. It has litle or nothing in common with jousting but about all with using the lance in hunting and on the battle field.
I guess you will find the litterature and video material of great use BUT it is all in spanish. Unbelievebly the largest distributor in not on the net. Their email address is agenciaecuestre@yahoo.es .

Your adressing me as Don Peter brought me a great smile. I am called Don Señor Pedro over here sometimes with my nickname being El Jinete .

My website is http://users.telenet.be/huertecilla/

Saludos,

Peter
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Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

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Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jun, 2006 10:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hola Don Pedro!

Glad you didn't take offence at my earlier salutation; I retained "Peter" as some people prefer to not Hispanicize their names (nor Anglicize, nor Gallicize, etc.), so if you prefer, Don Pedro it is. Big Grin (I did my graduate work on Spanish Colonial History, so I'm pretty comfortable with the language even if I don't remember as much as I'd like... Worried )

As far as Jousting concerns in Europe, here is a short list of them that I am aware of. First I would place the International Jousting Association on the list, as they are currently an umbrella organization for many others who can be found listed via their website, which is:

http://www.worldjousting.com/home.html

Another excellent site for finding multiple listings is Wolf d'Argent's Firestyker Forum:

http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

Destrier is located in England, but is at least somewhat closer to you than, say, California...

http://www.destrier.org.uk/

And here are some GREAT shots of the joust recently held at the Kasteel de Haar in the Netherlands. Top flight stuff!

http://www.webieval.com/photos/

And I assume you already have this link (or the printed version) but just in case here is Fiore's horse combat illustrations translated into modern English:

http://www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore/section7.html

I'll do some more digging on things going on in Europe, but that's what's on the tips of my fingers at the moment.

Allons!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Fri 30 Jun, 2006 12:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

WOW Gordon, that will keep me occupied for now....
Thank you more than much.


Gordon Frye wrote:
Hola Don Pedro!

Glad you didn't take offence at my earlier salutation; I retained "Peter" as some people prefer to not Hispanicize their names (nor Anglicize, nor Gallicize, etc.), so if you prefer, Don Pedro it is. Big Grin (I did my graduate work on Spanish Colonial History, so I'm pretty comfortable with the language even if I don't remember as much as I'd like... Worried )


What is in a name?! My actual name is Petrus but since I am most definitely not a saint do not use it actively. I get mail adressed to Don Senor Petrus too though. Again, only a way of adressing a particular individual.
When I studied with a rare true ecuyer, the late Sadko Solinski in France, his neighbour adressed me as Pierre. Same thing, just French.

Since you can manage spanish I am thinking of a way to inform you about the availeble books and video material on garrocha. You will also be no doubt interested in acoso y derriba.

Kindest regards,

peter
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Fri 30 Jun, 2006 12:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Frye wrote:
And here are some GREAT shots of the joust recently held at the Kasteel de Haar in the Netherlands. Top flight stuff!

Do you know who organised this?
I would like to contact this guy http://www.webieval.com/photos/images/dhr06751.jpg

I am in the process of making my own bravante sadle but without the supportive-restrictive pommel and cantle and aimed at max. movement for the horse. Same cinch-system as painted by Aelbert Cuyp.

Two of my mares would go into a scramble like this too but my stallion would go for real and sort the horses out to help me sort the riders out. He would need a muzzle since I ride bitless and he would not think twice about pulling a rider.... he is still young though and he will quite down with more carreras de cinta behind his belt.

Saludos,

Peter
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Jeffrey Hedgecock
Industry Professional



Location: Ramona CA USA
Joined: 22 Jan 2004

Posts: 129

PostPosted: Fri 30 Jun, 2006 8:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Peter,

I was one of the knights at DeHaar, portraying Jehan deHaynin, a Burgundian. My colors were gold with a red engrailed cross, on shield and caparison.

Ridders van de Haar was organized by Joram Van Essen of Delft Holland. He is a jouster and practitioner of western martial arts. He performs regularly at the Archeon near Amsterdam, doing jousting and mounted skill at arms.

The fellow in the photo is Tobias Capwell. Toby is curator of arms and armour for Glasgow city museums and you can probably get a contact email for him from the museum's website, or you may email me privately (jousting@historicenterprises.com) with your email address and I can forward it to Toby for you.

Toby and I are both founders of the Order of the Crescent, a team that's jousted at the Royal Armouries in Leeds and is a modern revival of Rene of Anjou's original 15th century fraternal order of chivalry. Both of us will be at the Armouries again this August bank holiday weekend for the individual tournament for the "Queen's Golden Jubilee Horn". If you can make it over to England, you'll see some of the best fully armoured martial horsemanship on the planet.

Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock
Historic Enterprises, Inc.
WorldJoust Tournaments™
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Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Fri 30 Jun, 2006 8:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for joining in the conversation, Jeff. I was getting to the end of my resources here, and was going to put Don Pedro in touch with you anyway for just such information. Fortune shines upon us... Happy

Don Pedro, I agree that for most modern "games" such as we play, your stallion is probably a bit too intense. But then of course, that was why gentlemen rode stallions back in the day: they take things VERY seriously, and are just as much a weapon, and perhaps moreso, as the lance or sword. So when we use blunt lances, geldings or mares are probably a good idea too... Wink

I've been to a few Spanish sites on horsemanship and the like, so please feel free to deluge me with more!

Allons!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Fri 30 Jun, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How about that for globalisation!!!
Thank you Jeffrey. I will look at the links with ATTENTION.
August is a NoNo as we live on a working small holding farm and my wife will be off in august for family visit abroad. Wether that overlaps or not the extra work will prevent me leaving.

VERY well prepaired outfits you have. Simply beautifull to look at. Impressive action too.
Hope those two did not have their feathers ruffled too much by their tumble.


Well Gordon, it would be impossible for me to ride with bit and spurs too as mine are not trained to be controlled. That is what makes my stallion a bit tricky at times. He wants to help and riding with other horses must be VERY carefull with what I say and do. A trifle annoyed GET a MOVE on PLEASE! will be enough for him to give the offender a reminder... Just think of a 500 kilo Bullmastiff and you have the picture. I actually herd the mares between paddock and field twice daily with him Big Grin
He will also defend me if and when he thinks that is needed. A fall like Mr.Capwell would see him stop the marshal running to aid.
He is a dreamhorse but also quite a responsibility. The mares are just silly at times, he is for real.
I am currently training a molly mule and she is both silly AND for real. In fact I am going out right now to do 10 minutes driving game with her. Afterwards a hug and some apples for my stallion and the lead mare so they will not take their discontentment about the attention out on the mule Wink

HC
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Keith Nelson




Location: Kalamazoo, MI, USA
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Fri 30 Jun, 2006 12:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

TRy this link for a list of a couple of primary and secondary sources that I haven't seen listed here yet.

http://www.rendance.org/horsemanship/

Also, you may want to try looking into some of the Arabic sources for 14th-16th century horsemanship. I have one I PDFed that is hosted here - http://weaponspage.homestead.com/files/mamluk.pdf.

Hope this is of some help.

Keith
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Sat 01 Jul, 2006 12:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Keith,

Arabic and other sources are an excellent suggestion too. Unfortunately VERY difficult to unearth. Chinese, arabs and ottomans have rich sources and without a doubt justify research. Unfortunately I am restricted to translated text and those are only a bit less rare then hens teeth.
Tamazight sources (Imazighen) are non-existant whereas there heritage is the Numidian cavalry. No written records exist untill you get well into in the 19th century...

Luckily on the iberian peninsula quite a bit is conserved in present day riding. The art of rejoneo per example is the peace time practice sport that was performed from the 14 th century till today. This style of horsemanship was practised by catalan noblemen when Naples was a spanish colony. Grisone and Pignatelli learned their ways here and Pluvinel in his turn transported them to Versailles. After Napoleon it had become forgotten, replaced.
Meanwhille this art was conserved unchanged in Portugal.
Although itself nowadays evolved more towards a parallel of the bullfighting on foot, the riding skills go back straight to the practice events of the middle-ages. The Portugese riders even still dress like their renaissance forebairs and their saddle goes back to Duartes father even, who wrote an interesting hunting (from horseback) book.

I guess I am stuck with a modern problem. The traditional way to ride uses bit and spurs and I do understand why. Nowadays there is however no survival need to (ab)use my horse so I choose not to use bit nor spur. THAT presents me with my questions about riding skills.
I have a VERY good and ejoyable book written in 1924 by Sr. Domecq who explains to his son the art of acoso y derriba. The aids being identival to rejoneo. He actually explains about the ethic dilemma too.
I guess I know the answer too but am stuck with ¿¿¿¿HOW???? to #@$!!! DO that.....
A pity the Numidians left nothing. They rode unbridled too.

Meanwhile a VERY informative topic this has turned out to be for me. Lots of new leads to follow up. Thank you all senores y caballeros.

Peter
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