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Rod Parsons




Location: UK
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Reading list: 11 books

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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jun, 2006 5:45 am    Post subject: Maille? An invitation and a question.         Reply with quote

Whilst lurking here the other day I came across a topic about Scottish bows which went south when it deteriorated into an argument about shafts penetrating maille. Someone (Dan?) mentioned that they were proposing a proper and impartial test of maille in this respect. I would be quite happy to arrange for a representative piece of best quality maille to be subjected to a penetration test by suitably qualified English archers, or you might wish to contact Robert Hardy through the Towton Society website.
Those who have antique maille of quality are not likely to be willing to risk having their treasured artefact shot through, which I have no doubt would be the end result.
You could go so far as to make up a target with whatever combination you think appropriate of padding etc.

My question is this. There used to be a Maille Society site showing different types of maille in a quite clear fashion. Does this site still exist, or is their an alternative here showing the range of styles of construction of proper maille? And who makes good reproduction maille to order at prices less than the astronomical?
Thanks, Rod.
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Chad Sonderberg




Location: Muscatine, IA, USA
Joined: 26 May 2005
Reading list: 6 books

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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jun, 2006 6:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As far as I'm aware, 4-to-1 is the only historically correct weave style used in armor. Debates have argued for some of the other weaves, but little historical proof has been found other than paintings and tapestries, which are prone to artistic exageration. Not that I'm saying they aren't viable sources, but... I've yet to see any surviving examples that were created for battlefield use.

I think I remember the site that you are refering to, but I have no idea if the site still exists as I only weave 4-to-1 and 6-to-1. I'm sorry that I can't help. Sad

A.C.S.

Lebend mit Ehre, Sterben Sie mit Dignitšt.
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Rod Parsons




Location: UK
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Reading list: 11 books

Posts: 154

PostPosted: Mon 12 Jun, 2006 12:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Chad.
But what about ring sizes and types and methods of joining?
Is it true that the Vikings considered a byrnie with a combination of small diameter flat and round rings as being more proof against penetration?
I can see that ring size, % of open area and strength of fastening would all be factors when it comes to denying penetration, but has a study been made of this?
I can see that maille could be penetrated, being primarily a protection against a slashing blow, in the same way that plate might be penetrated, being primarily a means of deflecting points and strokes.
The early studies on bodkin penetration of plate emphasise the angle of the path of any projectile relative to the surface of the plate as having a significant effect on the degree of penetration.
This could also have an effect with maille.
What do you say?
Rod.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jun, 2006 9:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is at least one example of 6-in-1 weave. The collar on the standard in the British Museum is 6-in-1. I vaguely recall Erik mentioning another example. It seems that the weave was used in Europe when the mail needed to be more rigid - such as around the neck. In India, for example the same effect was achieved by using strips of leather (so called "banded mail"). Neither method is practical for an entire shirt.

The Mail Research Society merged into the Armour Research Society. Erik has subsequently left the ARS and will be re-establishing the Mail Research Society as a separate entity. When this is sorted out, mail tests will be organised. Erik used to post here on occasion. It would be best to contact him directly for more info.
http://webpages.charter.net/erikdschmid/
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Rod Parsons




Location: UK
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Reading list: 11 books

Posts: 154

PostPosted: Tue 13 Jun, 2006 12:32 am    Post subject: re         Reply with quote

Thank you Dan,
I think we are at opposite poles of the same agreement, rather than disagreeing.
It would be good to have precise criteria fully observed and recorded so as to give a better understanding of what is or is not arrowproof and to what degree.
However, when considering the arming of a mediaeval army in Europe, it can be interesting to consider the fast car metaphor. It has been said that the owning of armour of the highest quality was in economic terms the equivalent of affording and owning a Ferrari. In an army of several thousand, how many will own Ferraris and how many a Ford Pinto, a Datsun Cherry or the equivalent?
In a well founded modern army, everyone is in the first instance issued gear of similar quality, in a mediaeval army at best only the richest and their immediate household will as a rule have gear of the highest quality.
The rest make do with what they can get, whether their own or what can be afforded for them.
Rod.
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Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Wed 14 Jun, 2006 1:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Join the yahoo group rivetedmaille, there are some very dedicated and active guys who rebuild flat wedge riveted mail at home, cheaply and with superb results.

I guess they will gladly give you maille patches for testing

I sugegst a rear padding of horsehair or hemp (at least 2 cm thick) to simulate a real gambeson
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 14 Jun, 2006 2:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno Giordan wrote:
Join the yahoo group rivetedmaille, there are some very dedicated and active guys who rebuild flat wedge riveted mail at home, cheaply and with superb results.

I guess they will gladly give you maille patches for testing

I sugegst a rear padding of horsehair or hemp (at least 2 cm thick) to simulate a real gambeson


5-6 cm would be the thickness before quilting. After qulting the thickness is reduced considerably.
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Rod Parsons




Location: UK
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Reading list: 11 books

Posts: 154

PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2006 12:31 pm    Post subject: Joules again         Reply with quote

I recently looked at some of the old threads on this topic (which regrettably often seem to go south in a miasma of irrelevant comment).
Nonetheless I was surprised to read a report by Erik of a test against a piece of his maille using a simulated impact from a lance point generating 60 joules at impact.
Bearing in mind that one of the tables in the appendix of "The Great Warbow" indicates a 1150 grain shaft at 146 fps impact velocity generating 75 joules, a 1335 grain shaft at 118 fps impact velocity generating 80 joules and a 1480 grain shaft at 119 fps impact velocity generating 90 joules, I have to wonder about the consequences of a hit by a 1750 grain or heavier shaft out of a bow shot by the likes of Simon Stanley or Mark Stretton, shooting a bow in the 165 lb to 175 lb range which is pretty much the top end of practical war bow draw weights.
Rod.
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