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J. Bedell




Location: Maryland, USA
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PostPosted: Sun 21 May, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject: Viking Clothing/Armour         Reply with quote

Hello Everyone,

I was wondering what kind of pants a viking would wear? Does anyone have any pics of viking style pants or know where I could get reproductions?

Also, does anyone have pics of a viking style hauberk or gambeson or know where I could get a quality reproduction?
Would a stiff leather vest be accurate for a viking? I am trying to make a viking kit without a mail coat and I'm not quite sure what I should use for upper body protection.

I plan on using this helmet http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...ucts_id=71

Thanks inadvance for the input.
-James

The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Sun 21 May, 2006 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Viking Clothing/Armour         Reply with quote

J. Bedell wrote:
Hello Everyone,

I was wondering what kind of pants a viking would wear? Does anyone have any pics of viking style pants or know where I could get reproductions?

Also, does anyone have pics of a viking style hauberk or gambeson or know where I could get a quality reproduction?
Would a stiff leather vest be accurate for a viking? I am trying to make a viking kit without a mail coat and I'm not quite sure what I should use for upper body protection.

I plan on using this helmet http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...ucts_id=71

Thanks inadvance for the input.
-James


theres a couple of viking finds in bogs for pants. i'll look for some more links. check this out: http://www.vikingsonline.org.uk/resources/aut.../index.htm

as for gambisons, there is no proof that they had one. also, why the leather helmet? no proof of them either. but i'm not sure your going for the 100% correct kit or not.
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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
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PostPosted: Sun 21 May, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some authors seem to advocate that the Vikings turned towards exploration and attempts at colonization of new lands around 1100 to 1200. If this assumption were true, the climatic timing was unlucky.

http://www.spirasolaris.ca/1aintro.html

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Ville Vinje




Location: Uppsala
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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 4:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are not much textile material left from the viking era, so much have to be guess work. There are however fragments of textiles or textiles used in later eras that can give us a fairly good picture of how they could have looked.

Pictures of clothing can be seen in the gotlandic sandstones and the oseberg tapestry.

Hera are some helpful links with pictures and patterns:


Simple pants:

http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/eng/drakte...krigfr.htm

Rus ballon pants:

http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/eng/drakte...errefr.htm

A few pictures of the ballon pants:

http://www.historiska.se/collections/shm-bild...sp?ID=5605

http://www.historiska.se/collections/shm-bild...sp?ID=5612

Thorsbjerg Trousers:

http://www.realviking.vikingagevessels.org/pd...othing.pdf

Damendorf trousers and sami trousers:

http://www.frojel.com/Documents/Document04.html

I my self have a couple of rus ballon pants. This model is well documented in viking art. Only problem is that buying the textiles can be pricey. I used about ten meters of fabric for my trousers. I have heard that there are guys that used up to fourteen meters.


Hope this helps.

/Ville
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 5:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

we don't know a lot about this...

Simple, non-baloon pants would be a safe bet. Combine with leg wrapings if you want a more baloon'ish look. Anyhow, this a eastern thing.
(Real manly vikings go west, and beat up celts and saxons, and come back with gold and women... Sweedish sissyboys go east, and come back with silly pants. Razz )

As for the mail, we, again, do not know. It is assumed that vikings wore short sleeved mail shirts, but only two shirts have been found. These where as far as I remember sleveless.
We dont know anything about gambesons...
The byzantines, at the same time (but half the world away) used short sleeved, thigh length gambesons. these seem to be the norm with viking reenactors.
There is no evidence of thick leather armour, though gambesons faced with hide are mentioned.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 6:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
we don't know a lot about this...

Simple, non-baloon pants would be a safe bet. Combine with leg wrapings if you want a more baloon'ish look. Anyhow, this a eastern thing.
(Real manly vikings go west, and beat up celts and saxons, and come back with gold and women... Sweedish sissyboys go east, and come back with silly pants. Razz )

As for the mail, we, again, do not know. It is assumed that vikings wore short sleeved mail shirts, but only two shirts have been found. These where as far as I remember sleveless.
We dont know anything about gambesons...
The byzantines, at the same time (but half the world away) used short sleeved, thigh length gambesons. these seem to be the norm with viking reenactors.
There is no evidence of thick leather armour, though gambesons faced with hide are mentioned.


But at least we know that swedeish sissyboys did service in the bysatine empire. So the at least the eastern boys had the opportunity to buy/steal/earn the knowlage and the stuff.

Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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W. Schütz
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Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 6:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
(Real manly vikings go west, and beat up celts and saxons, and come back with gold and women... Sweedish sissyboys go east, and come back with silly pants. :p ) .


Dont go there...;/
The mopping up in Rus-land and byzantine-service was hardly anything but work for the best.. And dont forget where the Jarls of Norway looked when seeking the most feared berserkers....

Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 6:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

yeah yeah yeah...

The pants are still silly. Big Grin

I'm going with reasonably loose pants, optionally with leg wrappings, myself.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
yeah yeah yeah...

The pants are still silly. Big Grin

I'm going with reasonably loose pants, optionally with leg wrappings, myself.


Well an oppinion....

But you are right that if you are a fighting man you rather go with the just slightly bagy trousers and maybe some wrapings but rather not. Keep it simple, stupid, was probally in use among the veterans in that time as in latter. If you want to portray a wealthy mercant or a jarl or his son you could maybe go with the rus-balloons.

As a cross reference. When I was a practisating Iaidoka I trained in hakama but soon learned from the more experienced peers how to roll them up so it looked like you had a giant diaper(sp?) whilst training outdoors. On a smooth dojo floor it worked with the hakama down over your feet. But as soon you where in the rough it didn´t.

Martin

Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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W. Schütz
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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually fighting in baloon-pants seems like an inane idea. I think those are pants you wear to your blot-feast showing you are the guy with the latest stuff..
Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 7:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen lots of people fight in baloon pants...
So it's posible

The landsknechts are worse, anyhow...

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
I've seen lots of people fight in baloon pants...
So it's posible

The landsknechts are worse, anyhow...


What I mean is that why should anyone in their sane mind go to battle in their finest clothes if they had a choise to wear something more expendeble and not so hard to wash braintissue, blood and snot of? (The Landskechts where prone to use lot´s of color and slits and stuff, but they had the money to do it or wanted to show that they had the money because they where soo good at fighting and got employed alot, to get employed more...).

The raiders of Scandinavia didn´t have to show that! Not at that stage at least. So again I think the flamboyant Rus pants and nice woven bands and stuff on the battlefield are a little bit of re-enacterism. But that is just my point. Also I think that some very rich raiders could sport such clothes. But if we are looking for some average style here I think the "normal" pants would be my choise.

Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Ville Vinje




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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
we don't know a lot about this...

Simple, non-baloon pants would be a safe bet. Combine with leg wrapings if you want a more baloon'ish look. Anyhow, this a eastern thing.
(Real manly vikings go west, and beat up celts and saxons, and come back with gold and women... Sweedish sissyboys go east, and come back with silly pants. Razz )


The Oseberg tapestry is from Norway. almost all of the male individuals in the tapestry wears ballon pants.

Then again, the Oseberg grave was a royal grave....maybe they were influenced by their rich neighbors from Sweden? Happy

http://needleprayse.webcon.net.au/research/im...horned.jpg

Anyway, it seems like the ballon pants was a widespread fashion. When I say fashion I really mean fashion as the pants most likely was just for showing of your wealth cultural superiority.

/Ville (some Swedish guy)
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Adrian Pendry




Location: Östersund, Sweden
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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 9:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Vikings ( as with anyone who wore ringmail ) would most definetely have worn a gambeson. There is lots of proof for Gambesons if one looks hard enough. Lots of re-enactors dodge the Gambeson question possibly because metal is cool, cloth is not, added to the fact that they are not, in my experience, very comfortable on a hot summers day "on the battlefield". The fact is that gambesons are essential for actual ringmail, otherwise it is of very very little use. If you've ever seen real ringmail, you'll understand...
I would suggest a garment made of many layers of wool, and /or linen, 'gamboised' with diagonal or vertical and horizontal seams. Thet can also be stuffed with old cloth or horsehair. History is littered with stories of cloth armour, but leather would be very difficult to make into effective armour, i think., unless, as was suggested, ( and there is some literary evidence for this..) as the outer layer of a Gambeson. Reindeer hide was used to provide armour for the retinue of one of the Norwegian King's retinues. Forget for now which one. Possibly Olaf Tryggvason. ( be grateful for some assistance from one of our Norwegian friends..) They were said to turn a sword as well as any mail. This should tell you more about ringmail than it does about leather armour! Wink Hehe..
As for pants...I take it you mean trousers? It has been suggested that trousers were quite baggy, as oppposed to the tighter fit of the Englisc, and please avoid the cross strappins on the lower leg. Little evidence for those that i know of and even if there was some evidence, they only serve to perpetuate the stereotype image of the Vikings. One might as well have a helmet with horns on! Laughing Out Loud
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Ville Vinje




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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 11:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think we can be quite clear on that there were vikings that used baggy trousers (sorry for the pants. My english is not what it could be Happy )
Whether they used leg wrappings or not is hard to tell, but considering later finds and finds from other parts of europe it seems likely. If they didn't use leg wrappings one has to ask one self why? maybe the were bare legged? However I can say from experience that cross wrapping the legs is unpractical.


Some pictures of balloon (or baggy) trousers:

http://www.gotmus.i.se/fornsalen/bildstenar/B...lla_a1.jpg

http://www.historiska.se/collections/mis/sok/...?uid=18450

http://www.historiska.se/collections/mis/sok/...?uid=17816

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catsha...lbjers.JPG

http://www.abc.se/~m10354/bld/img/bildsten.jpg

/Ville
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adrian Pendry wrote:
Reindeer hide was used to provide armour for the retinue of one of the Norwegian King's retinues. Forget for now which one. Possibly Olaf Tryggvason. ( be grateful for some assistance from one of our Norwegian friends..) They were said to turn a sword as well as any mail. This should tell you more about ringmail than it does about leather armour! Wink Hehe..


The reindeer hide armour was worn by Tore Hund, and was magical. St. Olavs saga is littered with tales of magic. As such it is no reference for actual armour.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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J. Bedell




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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
also, why the leather helmet? no proof of them either. but i'm not sure your going for the 100% correct kit or not.


I was planning on a leather helmet because a steel helmet is so darn expensive, but I guess no helmet is cheaper and more accurate than a leather one, so thanks a lot for the input I really appreciate it. I would like to make my kit as historically accurate as possible, hence asking you all for advice. I assumed that a gambeson would be accurate because of the use of mail coats. I know that mail was usually used with a gambeson or some sort of padding under it, so I would think that vikings would have gambesons.

Thank you everyone for the input so far, it's a big help. Also, thank you for all of the links this is exactly the kind of info I am looking for
-James

The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Mon 22 May, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adrian Pendry wrote:
The Vikings ( as with anyone who wore ringmail ) would most definetely have worn a gambeson. There is lots of proof for Gambesons if one looks hard enough. Lots of re-enactors dodge the Gambeson question possibly because metal is cool, cloth is not, added to the fact that they are not, in my experience, very comfortable on a hot summers day "on the battlefield". The fact is that gambesons are essential for actual ringmail, otherwise it is of very very little use. If you've ever seen real ringmail, you'll understand...
I would suggest a garment made of many layers of wool, and /or linen, 'gamboised' with diagonal or vertical and horizontal seams. Thet can also be stuffed with old cloth or horsehair. History is littered with stories of cloth armour, but leather would be very difficult to make into effective armour, i think., unless, as was suggested, ( and there is some literary evidence for this..) as the outer layer of a Gambeson. Reindeer hide was used to provide armour for the retinue of one of the Norwegian King's retinues. Forget for now which one. Possibly Olaf Tryggvason. ( be grateful for some assistance from one of our Norwegian friends..) They were said to turn a sword as well as any mail. This should tell you more about ringmail than it does about leather armour! Wink Hehe..
As for pants...I take it you mean trousers? It has been suggested that trousers were quite baggy, as oppposed to the tighter fit of the Englisc, and please avoid the cross strappins on the lower leg. Little evidence for those that i know of and even if there was some evidence, they only serve to perpetuate the stereotype image of the Vikings. One might as well have a helmet with horns on! Laughing Out Loud


your historical research baffles my mind hehehe. as one who reenacts with mail i do not use a gambison. heavy woolen tunic does the same trick.

there is 1 reference in a SAGA to the magic reindeer hide. hard to say it was a common thing.

as for the cross garters.there are just as many pics with them in the BT as there are without.
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Hugo Voisine





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PostPosted: Tue 23 May, 2006 10:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I might be a little bit off-topic but... do you know what kind of liners or arming cap were used by Vikings ? I own this spangenhelm from Albion (very nice helm for the price if you ask me, looks better in real than on the photo) :



There is a leather liner inside, but I feel I may need some kind of arming cap (or some adjustments made to the liner) for it to be really stable on my head.
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Douglas G.





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PostPosted: Wed 24 May, 2006 12:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it's easy to explain the "balloon" pants. Get your butt outta icy, you gotta wear 7 kilos worth of clothes
not to die of exposure in your own living room, herring for every meal land and go to where the spices are.
The people there drink wine, eat Oranges and wear "balloon" pants even in Winter (during which they see the
Sun) Who'd rather have Rottfisk and mummified Lingonberries whist sitting in the dark?

Lol
Doug Gentner
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