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Trace L. Gordin





Joined: 04 May 2006

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject: Newbie here looking for intel...please advise.         Reply with quote

WTF?! Hi, everybody. I am brand new here, and hope I don't pester everyone to death with my panoply of questions, etc.
I just stumbled across this site, as well as Angus Trim, Albion, Angel Sword (fellow Texans who make custom blades...hooaahh), Jody Samson's site, Raven-Armoury.co.uk, Sword Forum, Christian Fletcher (thanks, Mike from Albion), and Gage fantasy blades (Mike at Albion again), and some others beginning about exactly one week ago.
I have been sagely advised by Gus Trim, and Mike at Albion to post here most of the huge quantities of queries I've swarmed those poor guys' emails with. So I hope I can get some solid intel here, too, from you lot. Have at you, then.
(1) I am looking to buy my first ever swords, and I don't want merely wall hanger caca.
(2) I have zero formal sword combatives training thus far, although I have a decent amount of past Asian martial arts experience. And I try to watch alot of samurai movies, used to watch the Highlander tv series alot, and try to see anything that looks like it'll have sweet medieval or rennaisance combatives in it.
(3) I'm still trying to find out if there are any ARMA cats anywhere near me, as there are no sweet schools here that teach Japanese or Western sword combatives. Oh, there's fencing classes, I think, offered at both the community college & local university, but that's a far cry from the stuff I'm interested in learning.
(4) I am having one hell of a time narrowing down my selection(s) and picking a particular sword as designed for a particular tactical purpose/discipline from the huge choices of blades offered by Gus Trim and Albion. I live in a one bedroom apartment, so I have pretty limited space in which to monkey about practicing with a sword, anyhow, and I am not sure how management or neighbors would view my standing out on the lawn flailing about a sword, let alone tormenting a cutting dummy or tatami rolls (I'll have questions on that stuff, too, kids).
(5) I'll try not to get too graphic about it, but I have encountered some incredible snobbery, elitism, and misrepresentation insofar as American practitioners of kenjutsu and/or alleged "experts" on samurai sword techniques and styles of swords, as well as some purported "master swordsmiths" who turn out not to be! Thus, my resources and choices for quality, humanely priced, battle grade Japanese style swords has dwindled considerably. As much as I'd like a couple or ten $1000-$15,000 katanas & wakizashi; I simply haven't got that kind of bread to spend. Thus, I am considering going with Cold Steel for those needs.
(6) Can anyone provide me with instruction on building a lifesize, practical , anthropoidal cutting dummy which can be easily disassembled and stored or moved?
(7) Any advice/opinions on brands & models of swords and all pertinent info, including the obtaining of instructional materials--preferably videos--on various disciplines (namely Western and/or Japanese) are welcome.
(8) I am a veteran with some sort of unique physical limitations which for all I know may predispose me to some styles/techniques over others. In effect, I am wholly unsuited to anything requiring great degrees of flexibility or acrobatics. I'm strong, but have a bad left foot, and a slower than 100% left hand due to a stroke in '91,exactly 15 years ago to the day in a couple weeks, stemming from a stab wound through my right internal carotid.
(9) If I have totally confused, befuddled, addled, and/or overwhelmed everyone; now you know a bit about how I feel in lieu of the huge homework project all this has turned out to be! WTF?! Eek!
Anyhow, thanks for your time, a place to talk about all this jazz, and the patience of any and everyone who dares the daunting task of trying to assist me.

Brave Rifles!
Trace
Canyon, TX. [/b]

In Hell I'll meet you, and once again Defeat you.
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie here looking for intel...please advise.         Reply with quote

Lol, welcome aboard Trace you seem supremely enthusiastic. Happy Let's see what I can answer here...

Trace L. Gordin wrote:

(1) I am looking to buy my first ever swords, and I don't want merely wall hanger caca.

(4) I am having one hell of a time narrowing down my selection(s) and picking a particular sword as designed for a particular tactical purpose/discipline from the huge choices of blades offered by Gus Trim and Albion. I live in a one bedroom apartment, so I have pretty limited space in which to monkey about practicing with a sword, anyhow, and I am not sure how management or neighbors would view my standing out on the lawn flailing about a sword, let alone tormenting a cutting dummy or tatami rolls (I'll have questions on that stuff, too, kids).

(7) Any advice/opinions on brands & models of swords and all pertinent info, including the obtaining of instructional materials--preferably videos--on various disciplines (namely Western and/or Japanese) are welcome.




You already mentioned a lot of the quality makers in the production arena, although I noted that you did leave out the guys at Arms and Armor. www.arms-n-armor.com check them out. Narrowing it down will largely depend on personal preference and period of interest I'm afraid.

Trace L. Gordin wrote:
(2) I have zero formal sword combatives training thus far, although I have a decent amount of past Asian martial arts experience. And I try to watch alot of samurai movies, used to watch the Highlander tv series alot, and try to see anything that looks like it'll have sweet medieval or rennaisance combatives in it.


I'm sure you are already aware that although fun to watch hollywood sword fighting in most cases has very little to do with actual swordfighting.

Trace L. Gordin wrote:
(3) I'm still trying to find out if there are any ARMA cats anywhere near me, as there are no sweet schools here that teach Japanese or Western sword combatives. Oh, there's fencing classes, I think, offered at both the community college & local university, but that's a far cry from the stuff I'm interested in learning.


It's my understanding that ARMAs headquarters is in Houston, course if you happen to live near El Paso that's no help. Fencing was a huge disappointment to me as well.

Trace L. Gordin wrote:
(5) I'll try not to get too graphic about it, but I have encountered some incredible snobbery, elitism, and misrepresentation insofar as American practitioners of kenjutsu and/or alleged "experts" on samurai sword techniques and styles of swords, as well as some purported "master swordsmiths" who turn out not to be! Thus, my resources and choices for quality, humanely priced, battle grade Japanese style swords has dwindled considerably. As much as I'd like a couple or ten $1000-$15,000 katanas & wakizashi; I simply haven't got that kind of bread to spend. Thus, I am considering going with Cold Steel for those needs.


You will find folks that have that attitude no matter where you happen to be, either in the Westerd or Easter Sword worlds. Fortunately there are a lot of really quality folks about as well.

Trace L. Gordin wrote:
(6) Can anyone provide me with instruction on building a lifesize, practical , anthropoidal cutting dummy which can be easily disassembled and stored or moved?


Sorry not a clue, that's certainly not the standard sort of target but maybe someone will know...

Trace L. Gordin wrote:
(8) I am a veteran with some sort of unique physical limitations which for all I know may predispose me to some styles/techniques over others. In effect, I am wholly unsuited to anything requiring great degrees of flexibility or acrobatics. I'm strong, but have a bad left foot, and a slower than 100% left hand due to a stroke in '91,exactly 15 years ago to the day in a couple weeks, stemming from a stab wound through my right internal carotid.


Thank you for your service. Hang around. Read. Learn. Buy some books. It will come to you. Happy

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What Russ said. Happy

I'm afraid I don't know what groups are around your area. Although it's a far cry from instruction, your best bet will probably be books. Check out the "Books" section on this site (upper right hand corner). There are several reviews of some good western martial arts titles. My own book list is pretty focused on martial arts books:

http://www.myArmoury.com/books/list.php?mode=user&u=126

There are also a couple excellent DVD's I can recommend. One is on German longsword as interpreted by two of the members of the group Ochs, and is called The Longsword of Johannes Liechtenauer. It is sold through www.revival.us

There is also a good Italian rapier introductory DVD set sold by the Martinez academy here: http://www.martinez-destreza.com/

Good luck, and welcome aboard!

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ:
ARMA founder John Clements has moved to Atlanta so I believe that is where the headquarters are currently. There are certainly many Texans still practicing the ARMA method and are bound to be many strong groups to be found there.

Trace:
Like Bill, I'd steer you to books. Read, read, read.

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Russ:
ARMA founder John Clements has moved to Atlanta so I believe that is where the headquarters are currently. There are certainly many Texans still practicing the ARMA method and are bound to be many strong groups to be found there.

Trace:
Like Bill, I'd steer you to books. Read, read, read.


Oh yeah? I didn't know that. Have to update the old knowledge base I guess... Happy

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Trace L. Gordin





Joined: 04 May 2006

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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject: In response to everyone's responses so far...         Reply with quote

Hi, and thanks for the warm welcome, as well as replies.
Well, I'm just SW of Amarillo, so ARMA HQ is going to be a pretty good piece away from me no matter what. Although I'm going to try to locate the nearest chapters and members.
As far as the recommendations of reading, isn't it particularly difficult to learn techniques/tactics from a print medium? I know I used to have a really hard time trying to learn Asian empty hand moves from books and magazines.
I know I already asked this, but what sort of a training dummy, or whatever do you cats recommend for home practice? I had been thinking of going to Lowe's or Home Depot and having built an anthropomorphic, wooden and/or PVC lifesized, "dummy" which I could wrap in 100mph tape, cardboard, tatami, or whatever to hack & stab on and which I could disassemble for storage or transport. In my head I have kind of a bastardized, mutated combo version of a Wing Chun/bayonet/fencing dummy visualized with defined areas of strike preference, such as heart, eyes, subclavian, femoral, brachial, carotid, groin, knees, hamstrings,etc. The thing needs a "head", arms & legs, and a trunk, at least in my thinking, to provide fairly realistic targets for training. It seems to me that, as nice and helpful in some ways as it is to slash & thrust at air, a hard target is the next best thing to a sparring partner.
And, again, anybody who wishes to chime in on favored/recommended swordmakers and models (both Western and Eastern) is welcome. I realize this all comes down to highly individual preference, and is perhaps not altogether possible to approach from a completely objective, impartial point of view, but that's cool with me. Like I said, I'm a newbie to this, having until last week thought I was pretty well limited to Cold Steel, junk, or unimaginably expensive custom gear for my sword needs and desires. I know some of you use both Trim and Albion, and I have received conflicting opinions elsewhere on Cold Steel, Jody Samson, and Driftwood Texas' Angel Sword blades. Angel Sword is the most expensive I've found besides Don Fogg, Francis Boyd, John Gage, and Jody Samson.
Head...pounding...overwhelmed...by...too much...info...can't focus...Bones!...Spock!...help me...shirt ripping...writhing on ground...uncontrollably.....

Trace.

In Hell I'll meet you, and once again Defeat you.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 3:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Trace,
We have well over a hundred reviews of weapons and armour on our reviews page covering almost all of the manufacturers you've mentioned. We have more photographs and some mini-reviews on even more items in our collection galleries. We have a Bookstore to allow to your purchase items through Amazon as well as see what Amazon customers and myArmoury readers thought of a title. We have dozens of articles on a variety of topics as well, including historical figures, weapons, basic terminology and martial arts. We have photo albums that show period art, antique weapons, and modern reproductions, showing over 10,000 pictures. In short, this site alone (forums not included) contains many hours of quality reading that can help you shape your purchasing decisions and greatly speed your learning curve. People suggest reading because uninformed binge buying can lead to disappointment later. Trust me, I've been there. Happy For me, reading and studying gives me a greater appreciation for and understanding of what I collect and why. All of my early purchases have been replaced by better quality items. Had I bought (and read) books and found websites like this before my first purchases, I could have saved myself a ton of money and still ended up with a nice collection.

Learning martial arts can be better when learned hands-on, but if reading were entirely useless, why did fencing masters spend so much time creating manuals and codices? Happy Similarly, many many people are writing books on martial arts today that can be used as starting points. You will need to pick up a sword eventually to learn everything, but reading has its benefits.

I'm no martial artist, but I think it'd be a good idea to get footwork, guards, and basic cuts down before going after your poor PVC man. Undisciplined practice (fun though it is Happy) often just reinforces sloppy technique. European martial arts or more than simple hacking and slashing, with an occasional poke. Happy

By the way, entire posts in boldface type look like shouting on the 'net. Please avoid posting like that.

Happy

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To address sword-makers you asked about:

For historical weapons, you can't go wrong with Albion or Arms & Armor. Period. Gus Trim makes sturdy blades with good handling characteristics whose aesthetics are said to have improved greatly over the years. For me, Gus's swords aren't quite historical enough in appearance yet, though in fairness it's been years since I've seen his weapons in person. All my recent knowledge of his products is based on second hand info and 2D pics on websites. Mileage can and will vary.

Cold Steel's basket hilt has been given good reviews, as has their smallsword (a decent review, I suppose). Two of the grossemessers, though, have broken at the tang. I don't know of a lot people who have purchased their swords; Cold Steel is more known for their knives.

Jody Samson creates works of art. They tend to be fantasy-inspired and quite attractive to some, though they are not very historical at all. But this is not their intent. If you want something that looks like it came from Middle Earth or other realms of magic, he's your guy. If you want designs from the pages of this world's history, that's not Jody's specialty, though, as a custom maker, he could do historic designs if he wanted.

These are just a fraction of the makers out there. Many more exist and some are of quite high quality. Again, check the reviews page and the links pages for more info.

Happy

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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: In response to everyone's responses so far...         Reply with quote

Trace L. Gordin wrote:
As far as the recommendations of reading, isn't it particularly difficult to learn techniques/tactics from a print medium?

Reading is only the start. It's a crucial part of starting, in my humble opinion. It gives you the background necessary for you to choose what is of interest to you. It also develops the context necessary to start being a practitioner. Even after you've decided what is of interest to you, what forms of martial arts you want to practice, and have chosen a partner, reading will be a fundamental part of your understanding of the arts.

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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 4:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are you interested in a sharp or perhaps blunt sword or a wooden waster for practice? Instead of a dummy, have you considered a pell?
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Jeff Hsieh





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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 5:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Trace,

If it's European long sword you want to get into, start with "Fighting with the German Longsword" by Tobler and "Swordsman's Companion" by Windsor. If after reading those it still sounds like something you want to pursue, buy Tobler's "Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship", which is a translation of Ringeck's fight manual. There is another translation out, by a Mr. Lindholm, that you might want to get as well. You can buy all that stuff through this web site.

Stuff that you should work on before even thinking about pell or dummy training: footwork, posture and general physical conditioning. Especially drill footwork as long as you can stand it... it's boring but essential. When you are ready to buy a training weapon, you might consider a wooden waster or steel blunt before getting a sharp blade. You can do a lot more in training with a wooden or blunt sword than with a sharp.

The sword makers already mentioned all make good products. I'll add two more I have experience with: www.museumreplicas.com and www.lutel.cz. MRLs generally look pretty good from a distance and feel like a sword should in the hand. The downside is that the aesthetic details are usually lacking, plus something about the hilts makes me uneasy. They feel kind of fragile, even if they're not. Lutel makes a very sturdy sword which looks attractive and comes with a leather scabbard and belt. I've put mine through heavy cutting duty and there has been no loosening or damage whatsoever (small blade scratches aside). It's historically weighted and balanced, but it still feels kind of "dead" when compared to more expensive swords.

Just curious, what branch of the service were you in?

"Tuitio fidei et obsequium pauperum."
- The Knights Hospitaller, 1130 AD
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 5:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Trace,

Go to the ARMA site and look for an NTP 1.0 event.

Even if you don't have a group near you, NTP's are normally two days long and in my expereince provide a nice basic introduction to things with like minded people. Its at least enough of an introduction to help you decide whether you really want to get on with things.

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Trace,
Yes, learning martial arts from a book is incredibly difficult. But like I said, if you don't have access to an instructor, well, then what other choice do you have, right? Happy Besides which, as others have mentioned, it gives you some framework so that you have an idea of what you're interested in: There world of western martial arts is varied, with quite a number of styles, just like with Asian martial arts. Books can help you figure out what you want to focus on.

I'm afraid I'm not very familiar with the Texas geography (having only been to Austin), but how far away are you from either Austin, San Antonio or Houston? If you're anywhere near those areas, you should look into Schola St. George. Brian Price heads up the Houston group, and he's a wonderful teacher.

http://www.scholasaintgeorge.org/

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One alternative to the practice "cutting dummy" may be a pell. It is most economical, and historically accurate to practice impact strikes with wood against wood, and test cutting with something that is less abusive to your "prized blade."

The pell is basically just a human height, stout wooden post. Most simply strike it with a wooden "waster" sword (no need to stress a premium cost metal sword.) If you have a junk (cottonwood?) tree that no one objects to your abusing in this fashion, you can just hit a tree.

Those I have known who actually practice hitting something solid with realistic force, and realistic shock back into the hands and thumbs/ fingers tend to change their opinions about how to grip a sword (thumb/finger positions), and are pretty capable cutters. Ultimately, you will need a combination of instruction from experienced people who are certain how to perform strikes, plus practice with both actual cutting (suggest large plastic bottles filled with water) and actual harsh strikes against solid objects to develop your personnal style/ preferrence.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 8:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.thearma.org/essays/pell/pellhistory.htm
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: In response to everyone's responses so far...         Reply with quote

Trace

ARMA member Scott Adair (adair3@yahoo.com) lives out in your neck of the world. Scott's a really nice person and a very good swordsmen.[/url]

Ran Pleasant
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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Welcome Trace, I joined this magnificent website in September and I was real wet behind the ears when I came here. This website has done wonders for me in my quest to learn, in fact myArmoury has been a "God Send" for me!

I will be brief, I am a quality fanatic but I don't have much money, still for me swords have become extremely important to me and they mean more to me than say my vehicle, furniture, etc. I'd rather drive a beater van (which I do) to enable me the opportunity to buy swords, than to have a relatively nice van. Swords and medieval weapons are "that important" to me!

I also know and am accepting of the fact that you get what you pay for! Well, I cannot afford custom swords at this point in my life, I do have some good financial things coming my way shortly but I also have to get our house ready to be sold in the next few years.

Although I cannot afford custom swords, I can afford very high end production swords from time to time, of which I now have 7 and 2 more I will be adding within the next 6 months or so. "My" favorite and only place that I buy swords from are the following 2 companies of which I am listing in alphabetical order out of respect for these companies and to not show favoritism as they are both 5 star companies and then some!

www.albion-swords.com

www.arms-n-armor.com

Either company, you cannot go wrong! I have the greatest respect and love for these 2 companies!

Welcome Trace and I hope to see a lot of you in here! Also, congratulations, your now a member of the best European Weaponry website anywhere on the internet and that is my absolute honest opinion! I just LOVE this website!
A lot of really great people here! Terrific people!


Sincerely,

Bob
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Don Stanko




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PostPosted: Fri 05 May, 2006 5:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Trace,
I wanted to take a moment to address the issue of training. Now I know I'm in the minority for seeing sport fencing as a valuable tool, but please hear me out. Although sport fencing may not cover the type of swordmanship you are interested in, it has some admirable qualities that make it worth your while. First of all, it covers many of the main parries and most of the disengagements used in sword combat. Fencing also enhances critical skills like distance and timing. After all, there is no substitute to sparring with another person. Having to deal with unexpected tempo and distance variables is a part of what makes this martial art so challenging. But one of the most valuable skills sport fencing teaches is strategy. Learning about action vs. reaction, false intentions and layered strategy is something that can translate to other fighting arts. True, the same strategies may not work, but understanding why the strategy works in the first place will allow you to formulate your own tricks and maneuvers that will apply to your chosen art.

So if there are no other training options available in your area, you might want to try fencing, at least for creating a good foundation. Its cant hurt and might even complement the literature you decide to purchase.

Don
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