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Michal Plezia
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Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Wed 03 May, 2006 6:32 am    Post subject: Brigandine makers         Reply with quote

Hello!

Do you know any armoureres who can make good brigandine for Xv century (especially from Europe)and have reasonable prices? I start to seek a nice piece to buy with any good effect. Blush
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Wed 03 May, 2006 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.whiteroseapparel.co.uk/ white rose. prob the best you'll find
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Mark Mattimore




Location: Cincinnati OH
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PostPosted: Wed 03 May, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Outfit 4 Events makes some that look pretty good.


http://www.outfit4events.com/index.php?main_p...Path=26_39

In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro.
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Wed 03 May, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

not if you want historical there not Sad
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
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PostPosted: Wed 03 May, 2006 6:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck,

Is there anybody out there that you are aware of other than White Rose?

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Mark Mattimore




Location: Cincinnati OH
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PostPosted: Wed 03 May, 2006 9:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
not if you want historical there not Sad


Really, have you seen one in person? I'd love to get your insights if you have. I'm just going off photos. There are so few people out there who make them.

In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro.
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Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
Joined: 14 Dec 2004

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 3:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A friend of mine, armoursmith and bladesmith makes nice brigandines : Yannick Epiard.

All plates are hand hammered and can be tinned. There is no lining like on all originals recorded. The White rose brigandines have a canvas lining which is not accurate. You can choose the outer fabric, linen, velvet, silk velvet.

However it is not cheap (around 1500 euros) and the waiting list is quite long.

You can see some exemples here (the first 3 is mine)

http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/images/pi...tated.jpeg

http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/images/pi...tated.jpeg

http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/images/pi...tated.jpeg

http://amalricus.free.fr/HK%202006/DSCN2404.JPG

If you want I can give you his phone number and address. Sadly he doesn't have any e-mail.
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 3:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mathieu,

right Happy lineing should not be there. but its more historical than 99% of the other stuff out there.

a friend of mine bought a brig a few years ago from a guy over seas. i cant remember his name though. but the guy said it prob be his last one. sigh.

theres not many people willing to make a historical brig. too much work and not enough money to make it worth it. there's a how to online:

http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/brig_craig1.html
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/brigandines.html
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Michal Plezia
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Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 9:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys!

Quote:
You can see some exemples here (the first 3 is mine)

http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/images/pi...tated.jpeg

http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/images/pi...tated.jpeg

http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/images/pi...tated.jpeg


I was wondering for a long time who is that man in red brigandine(I had those pictures and used as an example of piece I want Cool So nice to meet you Happy 1500euro is not cheap but can you give me a contact anyway?
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
Joined: 20 Apr 2005

Posts: 365

PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 11:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Mattimore wrote:
Chuck Russell wrote:
not if you want historical there not Sad


Really, have you seen one in person? I'd love to get your insights if you have. I'm just going off photos. There are so few people out there who make them.


Looking at the images on that site I can say none of those are based on a historical find, they seem to fit poorly, and the one that seem closest to a real example are covered in modern tanned black leather with huge modern buckles and it buckles on the side. I do not know of a single depiction or extant example or a brigandine being black or historical document referring to black leather brigandines.
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Mark Mattimore




Location: Cincinnati OH
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PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Barker wrote:
Mark Mattimore wrote:
Chuck Russell wrote:
not if you want historical there not Sad


Really, have you seen one in person? I'd love to get your insights if you have. I'm just going off photos. There are so few people out there who make them.


Looking at the images on that site I can say none of those are based on a historical find, they seem to fit poorly, and the one that seem closest to a real example are covered in modern tanned black leather with huge modern buckles and it buckles on the side. I do not know of a single depiction or extant example or a brigandine being black or historical document referring to black leather brigandines.


Yeah, the shinny black leather struck me as odd too. Confused I was also wondering about the closure system. Most historical examples I've seen buckle in the front and that one buckles on the side. Are both systems considered historical? The White Rose examples show both types.

In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro.
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Nathan Beal





Joined: 02 Apr 2006

Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi there

Steve Lunn (White Rose Apparel, http://www.whiteroseapparel.co.uk/brigpage.htm) can be contacted via steve@whiteroseapparel.fsnet.co.uk. he makes each brigandine to order so choose what you want and he will make it accordingly. Steve is very knowledgeble and really does know his stuff. Don't let the idea of a waiting list put you off, you may be suprised how quickly Steve will be able to help you out.

My understanding is that Brigandine for the C15th would typically be front closured and are unlined.

HTH
N.

Beware of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
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Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
Joined: 14 Dec 2004

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Thu 04 May, 2006 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michal Plezia wrote:

I was wondering for a long time who is that man in red brigandine (I had those pictures and used as an example of piece I want Cool So nice to meet you Happy 1500euro is not cheap but can you give me a contact anyway?


Well, I am that man. :-) Nice to meet you too.

The original picture shows my face as well …with a fairly stupid grin of joy. It was one of my first event with my new brigandine and all the Swedish members of our group turning around me like bees. I was a scene to behold and remember. :-)

Here is an other one from last year in the castle of Haut-Koenigsbourg in Alsace.


Here is Yannick address:
Yannick Epiard ( Black- and Bladesmith )
6, Route de Verdun
F-21200 Beaune
Tel: 0033 3 80 22 16 84

But I warn you, he has a very long waiting list and he is usually a bit optimistic about his schedule. He is a very gifted smith but not much as a production manager.

This brigandine is mainly a copy of the one from the Royals Armouries in Leeds with a couple of features from one in Geneva (Maison Tavel).

The ones from outfi4events don't look accurate at all in shape and are quite ugly to my eyes.

There are brigandines covered with dark leather, probably black but they look the same as others.

There is one in the Musee de l'Armee in Paris and a couple of others in different collections. They are usually believe to come from Spain. There are some examples in the Osprey book on Granada 1492.

Mathieu



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Michal Plezia
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Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Fri 05 May, 2006 8:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So thare are examples of leather covered brigandines! Thanks for sharing that pics.(by the way-have you got a picture of that helmet used with that leather brigandine?It is kettle hat ,istn't it?)

If I am correct soldiers in the first picture have brigandines in interesting colours.

In the second there is a nice example of brigandine pauldron.Have you got pics of other brigandine parts of armour?(not only cuirass)



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The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
Joined: 27 Dec 2005

Posts: 309

PostPosted: Fri 05 May, 2006 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thought this topic might be an appropriate place for this link:

Chuck Davis at mallet-argent.com has a page with some pictures of the armour of Charles V. We all know the red bananna-sleeved jupon from Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight, but these are pictures of what's underneath, including the brigandine.

Royal Armour at Chartres Cathedral

I have no association with Chuck or mallet-argent, I've never bought anything off him. He replied when I sent him an email about this page though and said that the left arm armour is a horrible "reproduction" put on by the museum, which is why it looks different to the rest.

--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
Joined: 20 Apr 2005

Posts: 365

PostPosted: Mon 08 May, 2006 7:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Al Muckart wrote:
Chuck Davis at mallet-argent.com has a page with some pictures of the armour of Charles V. We all know the red bananna-sleeved jupon from Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight, but these are pictures of what's underneath, including the brigandine.


The brigandine with the Charles display is actully dated to the 16th century, I am not sure why they have it displayed with the rest of the armor.
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Mark Mattimore




Location: Cincinnati OH
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PostPosted: Tue 09 May, 2006 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've been rereading Osprey's English Medieval Knight 1400-1500 and noticed an interesting brigandine configuration in the cover illustration. It's an archer who is wearing a plackart over his brigandine with mail underneath. Anyone have an idea of how common this brigandine/plackart combo was?


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Cover - The Chronicle of England by Jean de Waurin, late 15th century

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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
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PostPosted: Wed 10 May, 2006 8:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark

There is debate if those are even brigandines or velvet covered breastplates. So the answer is no one has any real hard evidence other than speculation based on art, and art cannot really tell us how common an item is.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Wed 10 May, 2006 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not entirely sure I agree with the statement of artworks value as reference point for frequency. If an item is depicted commonly theres a reason for it. The brig/fabric covevered breast plate plackard combo for example, this is very common in 15th century military artwork, artwork done by a wide variety of people from many different parts of Europe. There is of course a remote possibility that this was just commisioned by everyone who ever had one of these painting done, or that everyone of these painters just decided to have lots of these in thier paintings or simply that the artists were painting what the knew. Third makes far and away the most sense to me. Did painters take liberties and embellish, sure , the frequency with which people are shown having thier helms cut in half, maille clad limbs cut clean off ect. in 13th century art is a topic much debated, but we're talking about equipment not actions. These 15th century paintings depict tons of open faced sallets for infantry as well as chapel de fers. I see no reason to assume that because they're in paintings very frequently they weren't used all that often. Just about every ones got a sword in these paintings , theres usually archers and crossbowmen, I think we can agree these things depicted in art of the period were not only present but pretty common so I wouldn't very comfortable dismissing something of this sort out of hand simply because its only in art.
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James Barker




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PostPosted: Wed 10 May, 2006 11:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Problem is Allan according to that art most folks fight with swords, few archers were on the field, and jacks were rarely used which via ordinances, inventories, muster rolls, and wills we know to be untrue. Art does not give us a proper perspective on commonality or scale unfortunately. Something can show up commonly in art that is rarely used on the feild of battle.
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