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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Dec, 2003 12:54 pm    Post subject: Albion Sovereign         Reply with quote

I saw this text on your page for the sovereign:

Quote:
The deep pommel of bronze is of the wheel type with a recess in the central boss.


Will the cross be steel or bronze? Also, what are the chances of other Albion NG's being retrofitted with bronze fittings (for some kind of extra fee)?

I have always liked bronze and steel together.

Happy

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Howard Waddell
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Dec, 2003 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Albion Sovereign         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
I saw this text on your page for the sovereign:

Quote:
The deep pommel of bronze is of the wheel type with a recess in the central boss.


Will the cross be steel or bronze? Also, what are the chances of other Albion NG's being retrofitted with bronze fittings (for some kind of extra fee)?

I have always liked bronze and steel together.


Hey Chad!

We are considering doing pommels in both bronze and steel for a few models -- The Prince and the Sovereign are the first, only in bronze, and steel will follow later if it proves to be popular enough.

The problem with offering both right off the bat is that shrinkage rates are different in casting, so different masters for the pommels have to be carved (by Peter) for each.. The guards will be only available in steel.

Best,

Howy

Albion Swords Ltd
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Dec, 2003 1:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Howy,
Thanks for the info. So there's no chance of having a bronze guard as a customization?

Happy

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Gabriel Stevens




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PostPosted: Tue 16 Dec, 2003 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kind of off topic but I saw the torture tests of the Tritonia and I was wondering if you guys did the same to the other two PJ blades? And if so how did those go? Not that I'm doubting their performance, I just kinda wanted to see pictures...
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Dec, 2003 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriel Stevens wrote:
Kind of off topic but I saw the torture tests of the Tritonia and I was wondering if you guys did the same to the other two PJ blades? And if so how did those go? Not that I'm doubting their performance, I just kinda wanted to see pictures...


I don't want to see pics. The carnage is just too horrible!

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PostPosted: Tue 16 Dec, 2003 3:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was mighty impressed with what the tritonia did to that barrel though....
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Mike Fletcher




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PostPosted: Tue 16 Dec, 2003 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Albion Sovereign         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
I saw this text on your page for the sovereign:

Quote:
The deep pommel of bronze is of the wheel type with a recess in the central boss.


Will the cross be steel or bronze? Also, what are the chances of other Albion NG's being retrofitted with bronze fittings (for some kind of extra fee)?

I have always liked bronze and steel together.

Thanks for asking this question Chad. I was wondering the exact same thing.

Regards,

Mike
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Dec, 2003 12:10 am    Post subject: Bronze and steel hilt furniture         Reply with quote

Bronze pommels can be a nice touch on some swords. It is more rare to find bronze also in the guard even if it does happen from time to time.
Bronze has a specific weight of 8.8 grams/cubic cm while steel has a specific weight of 7.8 grams /cubic cm. Bronze also shrinks less than steel when cast.
This adds together so that a bronze pommel made from the same original or mold as a steel one will be heavier.
There is some margin for the weght of the pommel to a specific blade (in some blade types more than others). If the steel pommel is on the lighter side, a bronze pommel cast from the same original carving might be possible.

When I make the originals for the hilts I calculate their final weight from volume, specific weigh and shrinkage. When carving a pommel I already know wether it is going to be cast in steel or bronze.
In some cases it might be possible to cast the same pommel in both bronze and steel, but this will not be a normal procedure.
I do not think bronze versions of steel cross guards will be a common thing to see either.

In most cases when you see bronze guards on historical swords you can tell the maker made use of the fact that he was making a casting of a sculpted original. There might be added decorations or slightly more exotic shapes in hilts that are better acheived by casting rather than forging.
IŽd like to use this effect as well when making hilt furniture for the next generation swords. Steel hilt parts should have a character typically resulting from being forged to shape. When bronze is to be used IŽd like the character of that material and process show in the shape of the object as well. This is a sublte thing, but adds a nice touch.
Just changing to bronze from steel might not always be a good thing. It generally does not look quite right.

I too like the effect of bronze and steel together. It should be used sparingly, though, or the effect will be just gaudy. On some swords a bronze pommel will be perfect to add that little exta flair.
I also see hilt variations on some swords with all bronze hilt furniture made in the future. I would like to carve those hilts specifically for being cast in bronze rather than using available molds. An all bronze hilt can be an interesting odd variation to a line of swords.

In fact, I am working on an all bronze hilt right now.
This sword is not among the drawings displayed on the Albion page.
What sword it is and on what blade it is built is going to be a surprice Wink
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Randal Graham
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Dec, 2003 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Bronze and steel hilt furniture         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:


In fact, I am working on an all bronze hilt right now.
This sword is not among the drawings displayed on the Albion page.
What sword it is and on what blade it is built is going to be a surprice Wink


-It better be your "Excalibre"... that way it will at least LOOK good after I kick your Swede butt...

Razz

R.H.Graham
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Patrick Hastings
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Dec, 2003 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Bronze and steel hilt furniture         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Bronze pommels can be a nice touch on some swords. It is more rare to find bronze also in the guard even if it does happen from time to time.
Bronze has a specific weight of 8.8 grams/cubic cm while steel has a specific weight of 7.8 grams /cubic cm. Bronze also shrinks less than steel when cast.
This adds together so that a bronze pommel made from the same original or mold as a steel one will be heavier.
There is some margin for the weght of the pommel to a specific blade (in some blade types more than others). If the steel pommel is on the lighter side, a bronze pommel cast from the same original carving might be possible.

When I make the originals for the hilts I calculate their final weight from volume, specific weigh and shrinkage. When carving a pommel I already know wether it is going to be cast in steel or bronze.
In some cases it might be possible to cast the same pommel in both bronze and steel, but this will not be a normal procedure.
I do not think bronze versions of steel cross guards will be a common thing to see either.

In most cases when you see bronze guards on historical swords you can tell the maker made use of the fact that he was making a casting of a sculpted original. There might be added decorations or slightly more exotic shapes in hilts that are better acheived by casting rather than forging.
IŽd like to use this effect as well when making hilt furniture for the next generation swords. Steel hilt parts should have a character typically resulting from being forged to shape. When bronze is to be used IŽd like the character of that material and process show in the shape of the object as well. This is a sublte thing, but adds a nice touch.
Just changing to bronze from steel might not always be a good thing. It generally does not look quite right.

I too like the effect of bronze and steel together. It should be used sparingly, though, or the effect will be just gaudy. On some swords a bronze pommel will be perfect to add that little exta flair.
I also see hilt variations on some swords with all bronze hilt furniture made in the future. I would like to carve those hilts specifically for being cast in bronze rather than using available molds. An all bronze hilt can be an interesting odd variation to a line of swords.

In fact, I am working on an all bronze hilt right now.
This sword is not among the drawings displayed on the Albion page.
What sword it is and on what blade it is built is going to be a surprice Wink


Peter what are the Shrinkage rates your using to calculate the final mass? I have done a fair amount of sculptural bronze and depending on some variables the shrinkage rates ranged from 7 to 10 percent overall. Bronzes have some of the highest expasion/shrinkage rates of most alloys. Im slightly suprised that the steel shrinks more than the bronze. It must be vastly higher casting temps.

Patrick Hastings Happy
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Dec, 2003 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Bronze and steel hilt furniture         Reply with quote

Patrick Hastings wrote:
[

Peter what are the Shrinkage rates your using to calculate the final mass? I have done a fair amount of sculptural bronze and depending on some variables the shrinkage rates ranged from 7 to 10 percent overall. Bronzes have some of the highest expasion/shrinkage rates of most alloys. Im slightly suprised that the steel shrinks more than the bronze. It must be vastly higher casting temps.


Hi Patrick,
The mass calculations are based on the castings weŽve got this far.
The steel has a shrinkage of about 5% while the bronze shrinks about 3%

It would be interesting to hear about your experiences from carving originals and casting!

I guess the higher rate on the steel depends on a higher casting temp, just as you said.
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Dec, 2003 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Bronze and steel hilt furniture         Reply with quote

Randal Graham wrote:
Peter Johnsson wrote:


In fact, I am working on an all bronze hilt right now.
This sword is not among the drawings displayed on the Albion page.
What sword it is and on what blade it is built is going to be a surprice Wink


-It better be your "Excalibre"... that way it will at least LOOK good after I kick your Swede butt...

Razz


Ha!

No not that one. Not this time.
That one will come slithering one dark night and bite your nose off while you sleep Big Grin
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Patrick Hastings
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec, 2003 12:24 am    Post subject: Re: Bronze and steel hilt furniture         Reply with quote

Wow 3% that is pretty low. The Hollow sculptures I worked on were extremely large. When casting a hollow cylinder the circumference shrinks more percentage wise than a solid does so legs arms and torsos shrink more in girth than in length. It leads to tall guant sculptures if not accounted for in the modeling stage. On the smaller end of things I have done jewerly and fittings wax work. If size is specific on smaller part one has to not only consider the metal shinkage, but the Mold shrinkage and injection material shrinkage aswell. I would imagine that your numbers cover overall process shrinkage. Its amazing what modern process can achieve.
I wish it was that accurate in a Sculpture foundry it would save alot of assembly time. Large Sculpture are poured in plates that get assembled like a puzzle. every bit of distortion causes extra hours of hammering bending cutting and chaseing. Somtimes the plates would be as large as 2x4 feet.
As far as my expirience at carving waxes go its nothing special I just use a variety of files and scrapers and a nice pair of dividers for layout. I have a Kerr wax pen with a foot pedal switch for sprueing and correcting messups. I like Kerr Blue for carving and I also use Kerr Aqua injection wax for certain types of detail like dragon scales since it pushes well with a tool but is still firm enough to be handled. I also like to work with Super sculpy for small sculptural items since it has some unique properties including the ability to be hardened. If your makeing a mold anyway it has advantages over wax in a variety of ways. these days I dont have much time for wax work since I have been working direct for my Japanese style fittings which take most of time.



 Attachment: 89.44 KB
dinomeal.jpg
About 6000 pounds of cast bronze and welded Steel super structure.

Patrick Hastings Happy
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Randal Graham
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec, 2003 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: Bronze and steel hilt furniture         Reply with quote

Razz[/quote]

Ha!

No not that one. Not this time.
That one will come slithering one dark night and bite your nose off while you sleep Big Grin[/quote]

hey, that's cheatin... (just like a northerner too)... you gotta use a target WAY smaller than that...

Eek!

R.H.Graham
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Randal Graham
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec, 2003 10:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cool Patrick, awesome bronze-work...

I'm thinkin it would be awfully cool to tun that dino-head into some kind of forge..how cool would THAT be !!!

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Patrick Hastings
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Dec, 2003 10:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randal Graham wrote:
Cool Patrick, awesome bronze-work...

I'm thinkin it would be awfully cool to tun that dino-head into some kind of forge..how cool would THAT be !!!


Hey Randal,
You must be wearing some heavy sunglasses after being under that rock for so long. Good to see you posting agian.
I had a passing idea about doing something similar for a pellet stove. They use forced air to burn compressed wood pellets and a heat exhanger to blow warm air into the room. I thought a dragons head with the burn tray in the mouth and the heat exhanger outlets could be the Notrils. oh and it would need red glass eyes that would glow from the flames aswell hehe.

Patrick Hastings Happy
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PostPosted: Sat 27 Dec, 2003 12:28 am    Post subject: Re: Bronze and steel hilt furniture         Reply with quote

Patrick Hastings wrote:
Wow 3% that is pretty low. The Hollow sculptures I worked on were extremely large. When casting a hollow cylinder the circumference shrinks more percentage wise than a solid does so legs arms and torsos shrink more in girth than in length. It leads to tall guant sculptures if not accounted for in the modeling stage. On the smaller end of things I have done jewerly and fittings wax work. If size is specific on smaller part one has to not only consider the metal shinkage, but the Mold shrinkage and injection material shrinkage aswell. I would imagine that your numbers cover overall process shrinkage. Its amazing what modern process can achieve.
I wish it was that accurate in a Sculpture foundry it would save alot of assembly time. Large Sculpture are poured in plates that get assembled like a puzzle. every bit of distortion causes extra hours of hammering bending cutting and chaseing. Somtimes the plates would be as large as 2x4 feet.
As far as my expirience at carving waxes go its nothing special I just use a variety of files and scrapers and a nice pair of dividers for layout. I have a Kerr wax pen with a foot pedal switch for sprueing and correcting messups. I like Kerr Blue for carving and I also use Kerr Aqua injection wax for certain types of detail like dragon scales since it pushes well with a tool but is still firm enough to be handled. I also like to work with Super sculpy for small sculptural items since it has some unique properties including the ability to be hardened. If your makeing a mold anyway it has advantages over wax in a variety of ways. these days I dont have much time for wax work since I have been working direct for my Japanese style fittings which take most of time.


Patrick,
That is a very impressive dino resting on your shop floor!
IŽd like to see it live. (Not *a-live* thogh...)
Never knew you were doing such large scale work.
Great fun and inspiring to see!
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Patrick Hastings
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PostPosted: Wed 31 Dec, 2003 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Bronze and steel hilt furniture         Reply with quote

Quote:
Patrick,
That is a very impressive dino resting on your shop floor!
IŽd like to see it live. (Not *a-live* thogh...)
Never knew you were doing such large scale work.
Great fun and inspiring to see!


Thanks Peter,
I don't do that large scale work anymore, but I have lots of photos of those projects. I should make it clear though that no one person can really claim all the credit for such monstrosities hehe. It took 4 highly skilled people with 4 underlings a year to sculpt and mold the project. It took a crew of 12, 2 months to cast the plates. It took a crew of 8 two months to put it together and chase it. I was one of the original four and supervised hand on style all the way to completion. I spent more than a year of my life on that one particular sculpture set. I worked in every phase of its construction and though only one name got put on the sculpture in the end it is the result of a small army of skilled and semi skilled labor . Most monuments are despite the one man labels. The guy who finally put his name on it was barely involved in its construction. That was a sour note for me and became my last project of that type. If you ever get to the museum of natural history in LA california you cannot miss the sculpture. It is right in front of the museum outside on the main street.
I find your work extremly interesting aswell. I would pay money to handle all the antiques you have just for fun Happy

Patrick Hastings Happy
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Björn Hellqvist
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PostPosted: Wed 31 Dec, 2003 5:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OK, it's off-topic, but is this the statue in question?


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Patrick Hastings
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PostPosted: Wed 31 Dec, 2003 5:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Björn Hellqvist wrote:
OK, it's off-topic, but is this the statue in question?


When you get the picture to show yes thats it. "Dueling Dinosours" They are much darker than that though. The picture is really tweaked. I would have posted a nice one, but I dont want to hijack the thread hehe. Ill put one up in the off topic forum. well rather than do all that heres a link. http://bladefittings.com/dinopair.jpg the color in this one is abit more accurate. That one the museum has up looks like they have no patina hehe.

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