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W. Schütz
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Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Mar, 2006 10:50 am    Post subject: Fun steel-on-steel fighting vids         Reply with quote

http://www.lancasters-armourie.co.uk/vids/twinwood05/sat12.htm

Its fun to watch, but i cant help feel that these guys really needs to study their fechtbucher some more..
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Addison C. de Lisle




Location: South Carolina
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Mar, 2006 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fun to watch yes, except for the guy (the referee I'm assuming) kept blocking the camera. They looked like they were really getting tired toward the end.
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W. Schütz
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Mar, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I dont really understand this sort of fighting, longsword combat in full armour without half-swording or grappling would leave me feeling quite frustrated..
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Matthew K. Shea




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Mar, 2006 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's a pretty interesting video, but sadly it stopped playing for me about a third of the way in Worried

From my (extremely limited) experience, it seems like they're doing less fencing and more flailing at each other with their swords. Not to judge them or anything, 'cause I wouldn't know the first thing about sword fighting and what they're doing would be pretty cool to do.

If you guys like this video, you can also check out some other videos from The Academy of European Medieval Martial Arts. Just scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on "General Training Videos" to see a fairly extensive library of short duelling clips. I find that after watching a few videos the site becomes non-responsive for me, but closing the browser and going back to the site after a few seconds seems to remedy this.
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W. R. Reynolds




Location: Ramona, CA
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Mar, 2006 6:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

W.,

Couldn't get your link to work nor could I do so with the link on Lancaster's site. Without seeing the video, my guess as to why no half swording was done in full armour would be that it allows you to use full speed reasonable force blossfechten techniques without running the risk of serious injury. Another guess and this is from the front page of their website is that it is what the public in general expects a sword fight to look like anyway. Is it correct? Probably not. Is it entertaining? A look at the background on the photo of the 2005 will answer that one.

Bill

"No matter who wins the rat race.......they are still a rat."
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Eric Allen




Location: Texas
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Mar, 2006 9:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

W. R. Reynolds wrote:
W.,

Couldn't get your link to work nor could I do so with the link on Lancaster's site. Without seeing the video, my guess as to why no half swording was done in full armour would be that it allows you to use full speed reasonable force blossfechten techniques without running the risk of serious injury. Another guess and this is from the front page of their website is that it is what the public in general expects a sword fight to look like anyway. Is it correct? Probably not. Is it entertaining? A look at the background on the photo of the 2005 will answer that one.


And thus we enter the self-feeding cycle of "entertainment swordplay." Inaccurate techiques are used because thats what the public expects to see (and they "look cool" to the untrained eye). The public expects to see inaccurate techniques because its all they've been exposed to, and so entertainers utilize inaccurate techniques because its what the public expects to see.

I've always wanted to set up a show at a RenFaire where the proper use of historical weapons is demonstrated (though ARMA-esque free-sparing and test-cuttings on various, probably fruit, mediums). Who's with me?
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W. Schütz
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Mar, 2006 11:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These vids, and there are a bunch of em, really feeds the prejudice that medieval fighting was just two guys in 50kg steel armour, imovable and just smacking away at eachother..some of these vids kinda remind me of that fight with the black knight in 'the Holy Grail'...
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar, 2006 2:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They are slooooooow.... Big Grin
and that's no just because of the armour.
Some groups favour this slow, heavy style of show fighting. Probably because they subscribed to the notion of "heavy knights" when they started out.
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W. Schütz
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PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar, 2006 2:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
They are slooooooow.... :D
and that's no just because of the armour.
Some groups favour this slow, heavy style of show fighting. Probably because they subscribed to the notion of "heavy knights" when they started out.


Yep for sure. Anyone who practices with full armour can move quite agile, its just a lot more straining. Altho i doubt that the armour these guys are using are custom well-made and agile armour - concidering how much abuse this sort of fighting delivers to your equipment.

I dont get how this could ever be more entertaining then "real" fighting. I would sweat with joy of seeing a whole tournament with skilled and technical fighting - with grappeling and the works!
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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar, 2006 3:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ive done fast steel and staged steel. the public just loves the clang of metal on metal. it doesnt matter.
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Maria Wilkinson




Location: Middlesex, England
Joined: 28 Feb 2006

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PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar, 2006 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

these guys had a stall at a re-enactors fayre end of last year and so I managed to take a close look at the waepons, they are well made and feel nice to handle. Whilst we were there they had the double headed glaive which they want to authenticate ( it's on the website under "products prices" and then "new products") and they offered 50% discount on it to anyone who could authenticate it. As they had an area cordoned off for playing, I had to have a go with the glaive and just managed to keep it under enough control to prevent it from causing major damage to the rope posts!
they also had this video at the fayre and demonstrated some of their techniques in their arena, it is a slow combat but the guys who where there made it look easy. Too slow for me though
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Matthew K. Shea




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar, 2006 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would like to retract my earlier statement of this "seems like they're doing less fencing and more flailing at each other" and state it outright: they are not fencing, but flailing at each other with swords. I showed this video to a friend, and he said something interesting: what they are doing is swordfighting as much as Olympic fencing is swordfighting.

Why? Because in both the fighters are performing what would be suicidal moves in a real battle situation. Now, I'm not saying anything bad about those who practice Olympic-style fencing (far from it; the skill and athleticism involved is amazing), but when your only goal is to hit your opponent even a split second before your opponent hits back, that isn't a real sword fight. The same thing happens many times in the video: the fighters are hitting each other one after another, without any real attempts at parrying. At least Olympic fencers parry. And get points for hitting first.
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W. Schütz
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PostPosted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 1:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That has got to be the single biggest missunderstanding of how combat works - the fact that you have to learn to kill your opponent WITHOUT getting killed yourself i found to be the initial "AHA!"-moment when studying matrial arts - and one can easely see who hasnt been studying..
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 1:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We have started running our huskarl sparring matches to three hits rather than one to counter just this problem.
It feels better, and is good training.

When showfighting we generally go close to full speed, with larger, more visible blows; When someone is hit, he (subtly) opens himself up to be finished. If noone does so, he is still alive.
This because the audience does not see hits. Damn, I have trouble seeing hits most of the time. What they see is movement, momentum, and intensity. Keep moving, make fast or powerful looking attacks, and give the impression that you are scared of/want to kill the other guy...
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W. Schütz
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Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 2:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When we fight with full armour and sparring-polehammers we have stopped using the 'hit'-system and exchanged it for the 'pain'-system..;/ When using a hard-rubber polehammer you can hit armour hard without getting dents, and you feel the force of the blow depending on how well it hits you - and by that you determin the fight, just like in real combat - the one who hits best wins. So a stunned leg in sparring translates to a cruched bone if we would use real polehammers.

Wotans einherjers surely depicts every true mans dream - to be able to fight and kill your friends every night just to be reborn and ready to battle the next day.
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Matthew K. Shea




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PostPosted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 2:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

W. Stilleborn wrote:
That has got to be the single biggest missunderstanding of how combat works - the fact that you have to learn to kill your opponent WITHOUT getting killed yourself i found to be the initial "AHA!"-moment when studying matrial arts - and one can easely see who hasnt been studying..


I'm sorry, but can you clarify this statement? I'm slightly confused and not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that the the misunderstanding is: that when learning how to fight you mustn't be hit/"killed"? That in a fight you don't have to avoid being hit? Something else? I'd love to continue this discussion, but I want it to be about what you're actually talking about and not something I think you're saying Happy

Proud member of the Academy Of European Medieval Martial Arts.

"Those who live by the sword live a good, long time!"
~Minsc, in Baldur's Gate II
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W. Schütz
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PostPosted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I ment that its very easy to tell when people fight without having done any real studying of the 'art de la mort'.. They tend to not even know the most basic thing, the art of killing without getting killed yourself. And that was the first thing that made me realize that its actually not just a bunch of ways to "use your opponent like a tatami-mat" but rather a true Art of the mind and body.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When it's a game getting a hit in first wins or the total number of hits are compared and the one with the most point wins.

With sharp blades / real fight, the stakes of a mistake are high in pain, permanent loss of function or limb, or death: So I would imagine that would focus the mind and one would not charge in with random thoughtless actions.

Since practising with sharp blades holding nothing back would mean dying or loosing training partners, not to mention legal problems. Razz some sort of scoring system must be adopted and one does learn by one's mistakes.

What is good to remember is that in a real fight you don't get a second life!

Think of a first person " realistic " shooting computer game where you do learn and improve and refined your skills, but think how careful you would be if every " death " in the game came at the price of getting an agonizing electric shock: I would think that one's playing style would be very different than when it just means going back to a save point.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!


Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Tue 21 Mar, 2006 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Matthew K. Shea




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PostPosted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 6:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

W. Stilleborn wrote:
I ment that its very easy to tell when people fight without having done any real studying of the 'art de la mort'.. They tend to not even know the most basic thing, the art of killing without getting killed yourself. And that was the first thing that made me realize that its actually not just a bunch of ways to "use your opponent like a tatami-mat" but rather a true Art of the mind and body.


Thanks for the clarification Happy I'm really glad I asked what you meant, because for some reason I thought you were disagreeing with me WTF?! Not sure how ... Anyway, glad you agree with me. You too, Jean. Thanks to you both for adding to what I said.

If anyone's interested in seeing some "real" fights, I still suggest checking out the videos on the Academy of European Medieval Martial Arts website (just click on "General Training Videos" at the bottom of the page). They practice fighting in the tradition of Fiore de Liberi, so the historical authenticity is quite high.

Proud member of the Academy Of European Medieval Martial Arts.

"Those who live by the sword live a good, long time!"
~Minsc, in Baldur's Gate II
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W. Schütz
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PostPosted: Wed 22 Mar, 2006 1:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yea i remember watching these vids back when my computor worked as it should... I remember some awesome vids of guys in full transitional armour fighting with longsword, half-swording and grappling just as much as "fencing". The way it should be.
Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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