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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Mar, 2006 10:35 pm    Post subject: Possible A & A Custom Rondel         Reply with quote

I'm thinking of getting a custom modified version of the standard A & A Rondel dagger.

The main differences would be first using 1/2" stock for the blade with distal tapers on both the blade and the tang.
The point would be a reinforced armour piercing type based on one in the "myArmoury " feature article on Rondel daggers.

The main part of the blade would be hollow ground and the point in a diamond section.

The handle upscaled slightly because of the much thicker tang near the guard.

I would leave the bevel details for Craig to figure out as I wouldn't micromanage the project and would depend on his knowledge to make it work.

I'm still in the design / negotiation / pre-order being official stage, but the odds are high that I will go for it: Craig has already replied that the general idea was a credible design. He still has to see the drawing were I have refined my original idea of having a section of the blade hollow ground and a diamond section instead of a flat ground section in my first query about the design a while back.

Just, giving you guys a taste of what I am planning on having made. Wink Laughing Out Loud



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Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Wed 15 Mar, 2006 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gordon Clark




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Mar, 2006 4:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sounds like a very nice idea. Funny how this has gone lately - I ordered a custom Rondel from them a few weeks ago. Here is Craig's sketch of our concept:


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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Mar, 2006 5:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Clark wrote:
Sounds like a very nice idea. Funny how this has gone lately - I ordered a custom Rondel from them a few weeks ago. Here is Craig's sketch of our concept:



Well, that spotlight article on Rondel Daggers a little while back was very good. Razz Laughing Out Loud

And, my order list was finally clear of new ways to go broke ! Cry Laughing Out Loud

Should be interesting to see lots of new Rondel custom projects side by side.

I get the feeling that after a rush of pollarm projects A & A may be getting lots of requests for Rondel Daggers.

As well John Gage is also looking for ideas for dagger projects on another topic thread. Cool Cool Cool

I could be wrong but I think A & A may get a lot more activity on the custom front as more people realize that that is an option at " custom " prices that are still not too far above the high end production stuff: Depending how far one strays from a standard model the price should be 150 % to 200 % of a standard production piece if one doesn't go completely crazy with complexity of the design.

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Mar, 2006 6:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Okay Jean,

I'm not just following you around am I? You ordered a pole arm I ordered a polearm (almost done finally) you are going to order a rondel and I REALLY think that's going to be my next order from them (unless I get that flail of course). You trend setter you...

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Mar, 2006 6:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Okay Jean,

I'm not just following you around am I? You ordered a pole arm I ordered a polearm (almost done finally) you are going to order a rondel and I REALLY think that's going to be my next order from them (unless I get that flail of course). You trend setter you...


I do do my bit to help the marketing of stuff don't I. Razz Laughing Out Loud

Just like to help those suppliers who have given above and beyond quality work and customer service. Big Grin
( Yourself included. Cool Cool Cool ) ( Doing my best to make you blush. Blush Blush Blush Razz )

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Mar, 2006 6:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Russ Ellis wrote:
Okay Jean,

I'm not just following you around am I? You ordered a pole arm I ordered a polearm (almost done finally) you are going to order a rondel and I REALLY think that's going to be my next order from them (unless I get that flail of course). You trend setter you...


I do do my bit to help the marketing of stuff don't I. Razz Laughing Out Loud

Just like to help those suppliers who have given above and beyond quality work and customer service. Big Grin
( Yourself included. Cool Cool Cool ) ( Doing my best to make you blush. Blush Blush Blush Razz )


Blush Blush Blush Thanks guy... Razz

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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Mar, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Clark wrote:
Sounds like a very nice idea. Funny how this has gone lately - I ordered a custom Rondel from them a few weeks ago. Here is Craig's sketch of our concept:


I ordered a non-custom higher end Rondel from a European vendor myself not that long ago. Cool


Something I could still afford.

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Matthew D M




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Mar, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Out of curiousity, what would the point be to that particular style of tip?

Question
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Mar, 2006 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
Gordon Clark wrote:
Sounds like a very nice idea. Funny how this has gone lately - I ordered a custom Rondel from them a few weeks ago. Here is Craig's sketch of our concept:


I ordered a non-custom higher end Rondel from a European vendor myself not that long ago. Cool


Something I could still afford.


Don't leave us in suspense Joe, who, what and where?

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Mar, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew D M wrote:
Out of curiousity, what would the point be to that particular style of tip?

Question


Keeping the point robust so that it won't break or bend easily while being able to have the rest of the blade sharper than if the whole blade was diamond shape: At least that is my theory. Razz And I like the look and contrast between the hollow ground part and the diamond section part.

It's trying to get the best of both functions of armour piercing and decent cutting edge on part of the same blade.

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G. Scott H.




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Mar, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean, have you guys estimated how much this thing will weigh yet? Obviously the hollow grind will shave off quite a bit of weight (stupid pun intended), but you're still talking about 1/2" stock. Eek!

P.S. Very cool design!
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Mar, 2006 3:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

G. Scott H. wrote:
Jean, have you guys estimated how much this thing will weigh yet? Obviously the hollow grind will shave off quite a bit of weight (stupid pun intended), but you're still talking about 1/2" stock. Eek!

P.S. Very cool design!


Not sure yet and I'm discussing also making it bigger " MAYBE " Eek! 15" X 1 1/4" instead of 12" X 1" of the standard model.
Craig has already questioned the wisdom of also upping the scale of the whole thing ! I'm waiting for his next message and input to make a final decision about that. ( I do tend to go for extremes at times and then have to bring things back down to
a more practical scale: But that is part of design decisions where you push things back and forth until a consensus is arrived at ! I will give a lot of weight to Craig's opinion on this. )

Hollow grind and the profile and distal tapers should keep things " reasonable " I think / I hope. Laughing Out Loud

I do see it as the .44 magnum of Rondels though: A Knight can opener. Razz

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G. Scott H.




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PostPosted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Not sure yet and I'm discussing also making it bigger " MAYBE " Eek! 15" X 1 1/4" instead of 12" X 1" of the standard model.


You're out of control, Jean! Laughing Out Loud I can understand your trouble, though, in having to balance what you want with what will be reasonable or functional. I can't wait to see what you and Craig finally come up with. Big Grin
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 9:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

G. Scott H. wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Not sure yet and I'm discussing also making it bigger " MAYBE " Eek! 15" X 1 1/4" instead of 12" X 1" of the standard model.


You're out of control, Jean! Laughing Out Loud I can understand your trouble, though, in having to balance what you want with what will be reasonable or functional. I can't wait to see what you and Craig finally come up with. Big Grin


Here is an up-dated graphic showing what the larger MK 2 version might look like.

Although I will have to make up my own mind with the help of Craig, we are both thinking it over the week end, I would appreciate to hear opinions about MK 1 versus MK 2 versions as far as handling advantages or disadvantages and which you ( Anybody / everybody) would personally prefer and why.

At the very least this could be fun. Big Grin



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Greyson Brown




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PostPosted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 11:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't have a lot of experience with quality daggers, but I think the longer version is going to make some unneeded/unwanted sacrifices. You are still going to want the same thickness of material right before the reinforce on both pieces, and that means the Mk 2 is going to have less taper. I'm not sure, but I think that is going to make the whole thing disproportionately blade heavy. Depending on what you want, that may not be a problem, but definately something to consider.

The other thing I notice is that you have not enlarged everything. The rondels are still the same size, which means that there is very little space between the edge or spine of the blade and the edge of the rondel. There's nothing wrong with that, but aesthetically I like the proportioning of the rondel/blade on the Mk 1.

Lastly, I think the wider blade looks just a bit too beefy for this kind of dagger. It probably won't affect it's thrusting ability that much, but I've noticed that most rondel daggers are narrower than I tend to realize at first. This one was already kind of on the wide end of the spectrum, and I think that the Mk 2 is creeping into the realm of extreme when it comes to blade width.

I do like the longer blade, though. There aren't all that many daggers available with blades longer than 12 inches. Still, I think that you would be better served to go with the shorter, narrower blade on this project and save the longer blade for a non-reinforced dagger project. That's right, I just suggested another way to go broke.

-Grey

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Mar, 2006 12:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greyson Brown wrote:

The other thing I notice is that you have not enlarged everything. The rondels are still the same size, which means that there is very little space between the edge or spine of the blade and the edge of the rondel. There's nothing wrong with that, but aesthetically I like the proportioning of the rondel/blade on the Mk 1.

Lastly, I think the wider blade looks just a bit too beefy for this kind of dagger. It probably won't affect it's thrusting ability that much, but I've noticed that most rondel daggers are narrower than I tend to realize at first. This one was already kind of on the wide end of the spectrum, and I think that the Mk 2 is creeping into the realm of extreme when it comes to blade width.
-Grey


Took your comments to heart and reduced the width of the bigger blade to 1 1/4" instead of 1 1/2" . Also widened the guard a bit.

In an E-Mail to Craig I also suggested that the MK 2a might be made of 7/16" stock to compensate for the larger size and still have an impressively thick blade.

If I go for the smaller version I would stay with 1/2" stock. Greyson, thanks for the useful suggestions. Cool

I will also expect that Craig when dealing with the real thing will adjust the size of things at least a bit as the graphic is just a guide to the finished product.

Graphic MK 2a version:



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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Mar, 2006 1:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't like the bigger version.

Thought you might get a kick out of this one, attached.



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Greyson Brown




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Mar, 2006 1:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean, I think that looks quite a bit better. It's amazing the difference a 1/4 of an inch can make.

-Grey

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Mar, 2006 4:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
I don't like the bigger version.

Thought you might get a kick out of this one, attached.



Hmmmmm ...... That one is going the other direction. Eek! Cool Like a proto- stiletto in function at least.

Maybe my problem is that I always tend to go for bigger is better even when it isn't. Wink

A 12" blade is I think the longest one should go when one really want a knife: With a 15" blade I'm looking at more a Rondel short sword ! I guess I first have to decide if I want a dagger or a sword !

Maybe I'm trying for a more general purpose Rondel than a pure thrusting knife intended mostly to get in between plate or punch through maille. ( Assuming that is possible: I want to avoid that argument. Eek! ) The point should still do it's main function but retain some decent cutting ability. I also see it as a robust parrying dagger even if this wasn't it's historical function.

Oh, with a reverse grip intended to punch through hard target a blade around 8" would probably be best and a 12" blade is still O.K. . A longer 15"+ blade is more advantageous with a forward hammer grip giving more range but become awkward in a reverse grip stabbing motion: At least this is what I guess is the case ?

What may help in deciding is that the large one may just not look as visually balanced as the smaller version.

With enough money to spend, I guess I would have the small one made and also have larger Dirk / Ballock dagger made to satisfy my short sword fetish. Razz Laughing Out Loud

Maybe a compromise size in between the two others in size: Yup ! That's how the indecisive finally decide !

Nathan, do you at least like the smaller version design ??? Sad .......... Laughing Out Loud

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Mar, 2006 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Nathan, do you at least like the smaller version design?

Yes. I'd say go for it! Going this route will save you some cash, too, because they could use the same rondels castings as their standard model. You could apply your savings to your next custom A&A piece that we'll all oggle over!

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