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Merv Cannon




Location: Brisbane, Australia
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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2006 4:35 am    Post subject: This is the wierdest polearm weapon I've ever seen !         Reply with quote

I found this at "Fioredeiliberi" ......in the section on 'Pole-arm Plays' picture no. 5 ......it looks like they are fighting with giant Shish-kebabs with a block on the end, but one has a rope or line with a little block to entangle the opponent's feet.....

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery/album29

Can anyone please tell me what this is about ? Thanks !!



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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2006 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: This is the wierdest polearm weapon I've ever seen !         Reply with quote

Merv Cannon wrote:
I found this at "Fioredeiliberi" ......in the section on 'Pole-arm Plays' picture no. 5 ......it looks like they are fighting with giant Shish-kebabs with a block on the end, but one has a rope or line with a little block to entangle the opponent's feet.....

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery/album29

Can anyone please tell me what this is about ? Thanks !!


I really do not know...but the polearm itself looks like a goodendag(sp?). Though I am completely lost concerning the ropes...

Johan Schubert Moen
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2006 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Merv;

Interesting pollarm ! Here a a few speculations by me based on what the drawing might mean: Only the one on the left seems to have the rope and smaller block tangling up the opponents legs ? One would think that with a duel both would have the same equipment !

My take on it is that in the drawing on the left we are not seeing two blocks, one on the pollarm and the other attached by a rope to the pollarm but rather a sequence of events where 1) The block is on the weapon and 2) The block has been released to tangle the legs. This would explain the guy on the right still having his block on the pollarm having not yet used it to tangle the other guys legs.

The block might be loosely slipped over the spike and held in place by some release catch of some sort or just holding the rope tightly on the shaft by the hand: The block would be thrown by releasing the rope / block and it would be thrown at an opportune time.

The block while on the pollarm would function as a mace and as a tangler or flail when released.

Just trying to guess how this weapon could work as a weapon system.

Without the block it does look a lot like a godendag: A weighted mace like weapon with an awl spike at the top.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Risto Rautiainen




Location: Kontiolahti, Finland
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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2006 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You could also try reading the text Big Grin

Quote:
This play is easy to understand, as well it can be seen that I can pull him to the ground. And when I have him on the ground, I will drag him behind me. And when I don't pull the long tail anymore, he will get injuries from me.


So, that's what the flail like thing is for and

Quote:
This pollaxe of mine is full of powder and the said pollaxe has holes around. And this powder is so strong and corrosive that immediately as it touches the eye, the man can not open it in any way, and maybe will not be able to see anymore. And I am a heavy (ponderosa), cruel and mortal pollaxe, better blows I make than other manual weapons. And if I fail the first strike that I come to do, the pollaxe will damage me and is no more of any use. And if I fiercely make the first blow, I avoid troubles of all the other manual weapons . And if I am with good weapons [armour?] well accompanied for my defence I take the pulsativa guards of sword. Very noble Signore, my Signor Marchese, there are a lot of things in this book, such maliciousness you would not do. But to know better, be pleased to see them.


That's what the boxes are for. Some very specialized tournament stuff for sure. And more about the powder

Quote:
This is the powder that goes into the pollaxe drawn above. Take the milk of the titimallo[1], and dry it over a warm oven and make it powdery, and take two ounces of this powder and one ounce of powder of the flower of preda[2], and mix them together. And put this powder in the axe which is above, as you can do it well with any rutorio[3] that is sharp, because you can find sharp things well in this book.


If you scroll down the page, there are some speculations about the plants needed for the powder. As you already said, this really is one of the weirdest european medeival weapon combinations I've ever seen.
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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2006 3:44 pm    Post subject: Thanks Guys !         Reply with quote

Thank you ....Johan , Jean , Risto....... ........Risto, I cant find any text with this article......can you post the link to the page with the text if you please get a chance. ......also , do you know what these substances are that makes the powders, just out of interest ?
I still find it strange that the other four panels on the page are for the 'Poleaxe' and right at the end he throws in these wierd weapons .
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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Found the Text !         Reply with quote

Thanks ....I finally found it ................... http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/getty/pollaxe.html
Sounds like really nasty stuff..........
"If a man do but repose himself to sleep a little while under the shadow of the same (Beach Apple Tree), he has his head and eyes swollen when he rises, that the eyelids are joined with the cheeks. And if it chance one drop or more of dew of the said tree to fall into the eye, it utterly destroys the sight."........The latex from this tree was used by native Americans as a poison for arrows and to blind people and animals.
(Quoted in Lovell CR, Plants and the skin, Oxford, 1993.)

So guess we sorta have a big mace full of mace !! Eek!
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Risto Rautiainen




Location: Kontiolahti, Finland
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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2006 11:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, sorry. I didn't realize that they had such a gallery section where you can find those pics. I assumed straight that you found the pic from their getty manuscript page. As the pic really comes from the pisani dossi version, I wonder if the getty pics would be better at describing the "mace in a box" thingies.
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Fabrice Cognot
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Location: Dijon
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Feb, 2006 3:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all

Quote:
I wonder if the getty pics would be better at describing the "mace in a box" thingies


Not really...

In the PD, the nasty 'rope' trick is among the last drawings of the manuscript, with little caption (if any). In the Getty, there are two different plays, one with the 'rope' trick (and apaprently the rope is attached to the top spike of the poleaxe), and the 'powder' trick.

Like I said, the relatively more detailed drawings in the Getty could let us think the top spike of the poleaxe was the 'flying' part, attached to the rope - not really a box in a box, as the PD could let us think.

The other drawing, in the Getty, clearly shows powder flying at the opponent's face as he solidly blocks the incoming blow.

Funny thing is that Fiore shows these tricks while saying "someone so noble as my noble lord Marquis will never use such nasty things as those depicted in this book - but so that [he] know they exist, I mention them". Quite precisely, and with lots of details, actually......Wink

Fab

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