Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Vote on swords being banned Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Sun 12 Feb, 2006 2:32 pm    Post subject: Vote on swords being banned         Reply with quote

Hello,

A paper in the UK is having an online vote as to whether swords should be banned. To show your support for our UK friends (and hopefully to show politicians that there's some support for swords out there) you might want to go here http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/displayNode.jsp...eId=137058 and vote.

There is a discussion of the issue on the Legal Issues Forum at SFI.

Cheers
Stephen

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Addison C. de Lisle




Location: South Carolina
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Likes: 27 pages

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Sun 12 Feb, 2006 2:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is it the one referring to whether or not "samurai swords" should be banned? It appears 60% say no, 37% say yes, and 3% don't know (which makes one wonder why they clicked on the vote button in the first place...).
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Sun 12 Feb, 2006 3:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's the one. An hour ago the numbers were about 10% more favourable for the Yes vote and just now the votes were 32.8% vs 65.2%.

This is a campaign being pushed by a regional English newspaper to ban swords after some poor chap was killed with one. They have even presented a petition to Downing Street. After combating such campaigns here in Australia I'm trying to keep my finger on the pulse of such silliness. Anyone faced by such lobbying or actual legislation should contact me, or better yet, talk about it on the legal issues forum over on SFI. It's becoming a serious issue, but luckily we have the experience now to know what to say to win people's hearts and minds.

It should be noted that media polls like the one I posted are by no means a true indication of public attitudes. They are an indication of attitudes among people who actually care enough about the issue to vote and whose vote therefore might be swayed by it. It's important to send a strong message that there are people out there who oppose such legislation.

Cheers
Stephen

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Steve Grisetti




Location: Orlando metro area, Florida, USA
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Likes: 7 pages
Reading list: 28 books

Posts: 1,809

PostPosted: Sun 12 Feb, 2006 5:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What a ridiculous concept - if they ban swords, what next? Chef's knives?
The current tally is NO = 74.1%, YES = 24.4%.

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
View user's profile Send private message
Shawn Shaw




Location: Boston, MA USA
Joined: 07 Jan 2006

Posts: 115

PostPosted: Sun 12 Feb, 2006 8:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

79.7% vote "No"

Myself included....

of all the ridiculous...*grumble grumble*

People have been killed with all kinds of things...from chairs to frying pans. People get killed with plastic bags and rope, for that matter. Let's get a list going so they know what to ban next without having to put any thought into it.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Shawn Mulock




Location: Calgary Alberta, Canada
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 100

PostPosted: Sun 12 Feb, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It seems to be 79.8% for NO right now.
"It is not what you have, but what you have done".
View user's profile Send private message
Philip C. Ryan




Location: Omaha, NE
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Sun 12 Feb, 2006 9:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

80.0% NO 18.8% YES

Talk about a ridiculous concept. Heck, firearms and automobiles cause more deaths. Gonna ban them next??? Maybe they should just ban disease and cancer while they are at it!
View user's profile Send private message
Malcolm A




Location: Scotland, UK
Joined: 22 Mar 2005

Posts: 89

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 5:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Grisetti wrote:
What a ridiculous concept - if they ban swords, what next? Chef's knives?
The current tally is NO = 74.1%, YES = 24.4%.


Hello all.
Chef's knives? You would be surprised what some people would want to ban here!
However, I would like to bring some perspective here so that a balanced discussion can ensue.
BIG NOTE; I am not having a pop at anyone's comments / views; people in myArmoury forums appear to be sensible / responsible people.

HOWEVER, in the UK there is quite a big knive culture, and specifically knives being carried and used in the street.
School kids as young as 11 and 12 year olds are bein found with knives on them at school.
Lots of the carriers say "Its for defence in case I get mugged etc etc blah blah"
Knives are usually the weapon of choice for people looking to do harm; guns less so though they are increasing.
The public see TV programs about this issue and tend to go overboard in their demands for punishment / bans etc.
In a bid to prevent the sale / carrying of knives such as Stanley knives [box cutters to you USA folk], Rambo style hunting knives etc, the defining line of where the ban starts / finished becomes blurred.
The issue of swords then kinda edges in as during some of the police controlled knive amnesties [hand in your offensive weapons and we'll call it quits] swords have turned up; samurais, kukris etc. Believe it or not some people DO take them to street fights!

It all becomes a bit of a muddle with sensible sword owners [collectors ,re-enactors et al] perhaps being included in the group perceived by some section of the public as potential killers. The media, or at least some parts of it, do like to stoke the fires to create headlines and hence increase sales [though in cases their efforts do have good public spirited aspect].

The essence of it sort of comes down to the issue, is a sword / knife deadly? I would suggest only when it is used by someone who uses incorrectly. Its the hand that wields it that makes it so. But how do you stpo thsoe hands getting the weapons? Tat's the big question!

A few years ago the UK banned handguns in light of the Dunblane tragedy. Despite this ban, criminal gun use does continue and in some areas is rising; banning them hasnt prevented the wrong sort of person getting them sadly.
Any sword / knive ban, no matter how well intentioned, is likely to go the same way.

Sorry if I have drivelled on; just wanted to give you some background on knives etc in the UK
Personally I think any ban would be unworkable and the best plan is to educate people to the dangers of their use and have a solid criminal justice system to back it up.

It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,192

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 6:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To keep things in perspective they can't keep knives from being used and made in PRISON ! A law banning everything dangerous means banning just about anything and everything, and if all the good law-abiding citizens actually obey a law like this, the guys you should worry about WON'T Mad Sad

The only result is that " formally " law-abiding citizens who value their sense of freedom will be the ones caught, convicted and jailed if they refuse to obey a bad law: So the results are that the Bad guys are still out there and a lot of police effort is wasted on prosecuting people who were not the problem in the first place. Evil Sad

Oh, the bad guys " job " of being predators is that much safer as the law terrorizes the good citizens into being good and easy " unarmed " victims.

Let the Wolves party chewing on the sheep !

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Capanelli




Location: Whitestone, NY
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 702

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 7:54 am    Post subject: ........................................         Reply with quote

Hey I wonder what the percentage of people killing others with their bare hands are? maybe next we can ban hands Laughing Out Loud
View user's profile Send private message
Edward Hitchens




Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 9 books

Posts: 818

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 8:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I cast my vote of no. It's currently 85.8% NO and 13.4% YES.

We have the same issue in the US regarding firearms. There are people here who want guns banned who probably have never held a gun a day in their life. The other side tries to run and hide behind the 2nd Amendment ("I have a right to bear arms, blah blah blah." The 2nd Amendment doesn't necessarily work like that, but that's a different topic). I could go on, but I think it also comes down to the law of supply and demand. Just my .02 worth. Confused

"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
View user's profile Send private message
Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Posts: 790

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes = 12.8%
No = 86.4%
Don't know = 0.8%

I guess there isn't much of a swing vote on this one.

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
View user's profile Send private message
Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This topic hasn't been discussed much here, so I've copied a sticky post that I have on the legal issues forum at SFI.

I hope it helps people to understand the issues and what can be done to combat attempts to ban swords. I should add that it's very perilous to hide behind things like the American 2nd amendment. No state has the unfettered right to own weapons. If you doubt this, try to get hold of a nuke, or a canister of nerve gas and see what happens. Every state in the world restricts the ownership of weapons. This is one reason why I believe, that even in the US, we're better running with the line that these items aren't weapons.

Anyway, here's my post,

"It seems that every time the subject of anti-sword legislation (i.e. legislation to ban swords) comes up, I spend hours explaining to people what approach needs to be taken.

I have spent the last three years actively campaigning against legislation to ban swords. I have taken part in four campaigns (five if you count one to ban armour) and through a process of trial and error have discovered what arguments sway the sort of people who are in favour of, or sponsor this sort of legislation (and more importantly what sort of arguments harden their resolve to ban swords).

Basically the sword is not a practical weapon in today's society (although like many easily available items it can be used to harm people). Swords are used in a large number of activities in roles other than as a weapon. These roles include Highland dancing, theatre, re-enactment, fencing, antique collecting, martial arts, belly dancing, Sikhs, Masons, Pipe Bands, and others. The sword is not a weapon in modern society. It is a cultural and sporting item that can be misused as a weapon.

People who want to ban swords are thinking emotionally or reacting to people thinking emotionally. People thinking emotionally aren't swayed by logical arguments, such as the fact that swords aren't used as weapons very often, axes are cheaper and more effective etc. They can be swayed by emotive arguments, and arguments that present swords in a light they didn't expect and/or present them with unintended consequences of a sword ban.

Essentially any argument that treats swords as weapons will fail. The people who want to ban swords are hoplophobic. That is they are scared of weapons. If you allow them to catalogue swords in their own minds as weapons, then you have lost. Swords = weapons and weapons = bad; end of story.

What you must do (and I stress that this is not conjecture, it is based on personal experience of putting these arguments to politicians, bureaucrats and the media) is to confront these people with the consequences of a sword ban. I find the best approach is to try to get them off balance by asking why they want to ban Highland dancing and the plays of Shakespeare? They will be expecting something about weapons. To be confronted with a (truthful) claim that their ban will outlaw two perfectly harmless and very constructive activities throws them off balance.

If you can get the thought in people's heads that swords are items used for harmless and constructive activities and that banning swords will ban these activities then you are most of the way to winning their hearts and minds. Remember that politicians will only enact legislation that they think people want and will gain them votes. If they think they will alienate a large number of voters, they will not legislate to ban swords, or they will bring in some sort of wimpy compromise that appears to ban swords but doesn't (satisfies the voters, but sword owners and police hate it - but at least we get to keep our swords).

Fighting this sort of legislation requires a bit of a paradigm shift among sword owners. Most of us read our history, which is replete with examples of the sword as a weapon. Treating the sword as something other than a weapon takes a bit of a mental jump. But the sword isn't a weapon in the modern world. Axes were military weapons once, but nobody today considers an axe as a weapon. It is a tool that can be used as a weapon. That is how we have to look at the sword and it is how we have to make others look at it. This is not a lie, or a convenient twisting of the facts, it is the truth. Swords are bought and used as antiques, sporting implements, dance and threatre props, symbolic items for religion and ritual, as decorative items, but not as weapons.

The current lunacy to demonise weapons will not go away, at least not in a hurry. What we can change is people's perception of individual items as weapons. If you allow people to think of swords as weapons then anti-sword legislation is a danger. You must ensure that people see the sword as a tool used in harmless and constructive activities by worthwhile, law-abiding people. It is the only approach that I am aware of that has met with success.

Good Luck"

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Steve Grisetti




Location: Orlando metro area, Florida, USA
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Likes: 7 pages
Reading list: 28 books

Posts: 1,809

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 5:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Malcolm A wrote:
...School kids as young as 11 and 12 year olds are bein found with knives on them at school.
Lots of the carriers say "Its for defence in case I get mugged etc etc blah blah"...

No such 'excuse' here. There is no ban on knives per se in Florida. However, a child bearing ANY weapon of any kind on school grounds will result in student expulsion from the school system accompanied by arrest and a rapid trip to jail.

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
View user's profile Send private message
Addison C. de Lisle




Location: South Carolina
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Likes: 27 pages

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: ........................................         Reply with quote

Mike Capanelli wrote:
Hey I wonder what the percentage of people killing others with their bare hands are? maybe next we can ban hands Laughing Out Loud


I know you mean this as a joke, but I'm going to speculate a bit; imagine they ban swords, eventually it may lead to a ban on hand-to-hand martial arts...
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Joel Whitmore




Location: Simmesport, LA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 342

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: That's what you think!         Reply with quote

Steve Grisetti wrote:
[
No such 'excuse' here. There is no ban on knives per se in Florida. However, a child bearing ANY weapon of any kind on school grounds will result in student expulsion from the school system accompanied by arrest and a rapid trip to jail.


Hehe Steve that's what you think! Only if the child is not in special ed (I.e. emmotionally disturbed, behavior disordered, ADD) then he can only be sent home for 10 days at a time without being placed in an "alternate educational environment". I have actually had a case where a kid shot another one (0ff campus) and was allowed to come to school until he was found guilty of the murder. Weird world we live in aint it? Oh and he kept getting his $565/month from the federal government(via SSI) for is "edicational exceptionality"

Joel

Maybe we should ban career politicians!! Idea

LOL P.S. this thread will probably be deleted but it's a true story. (Lafayette Parish, Lafayette , LA 1997)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: That's what you think!         Reply with quote

Joel Whitmore wrote:
LOL P.S. this thread will probably be deleted but it's a true story. (Lafayette Parish, Lafayette , LA 1997)

Why would the thread get deleted?

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,148

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 7:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Hand wrote:
I should add that it's very perilous to hide behind things like the American 2nd amendment. No state has the unfettered right to own weapons. If you doubt this, try to get hold of a nuke, or a canister of nerve gas and see what happens. Every state in the world restricts the ownership of weapons. This is one reason why I believe, that even in the US, we're better running with the line that these items aren't weapons.


Very well said, Stephen (as well as the rest of your post). Comment such as, "it's not the sword that kills people, it's the person" are true, but that means nothing to a person who wants to see weapons banned. The easy counter is, "but what use would you have for a sword other than to harm another person?" Steve is 100% correct in that you can't play their game, you have to show them that swords aren't weapons in the modern world. They art objects, they're pieces of history, they're theatrical devices. Saying that you have the right to own them as weapons only plays into fears that we are psychotic weapons owners.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Micha Hofmann




Location: Bonn, Germany
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 9:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mmmm.... after reading through all of this, I'll try to add my 2 cents.

In my opionion, the call for the "ban" of a certain weapon/ dangerous item, whatever you call it is influenced by three factors:

1. The dangers of malign use/ misuse of the item in question.

2. The utility said item poses, when used for "non-malign" stuff, such as rifles being used for hunting, knives as tools etc.

3. The "oddity-scariness-factor" of the item in question.

I give an example: A couple of years ago, after a german youth shot several pupils and teachers at his school, weapon laws in germany became more strict.

Among the items banned were Butterfly knifes ( Balisongs, not the Kung-Fu-shortswords ).
Why were those knifes banned?

IMO not because they were very dangerous weapons, but because the had no real utility that other knifes, such as liner lock folders could not duplicate and because they had a bad reputation as "gang kid knifes" ( i.e. they seemed "odd" and "scary" to the average folk on the street ).
So the government thought that not a lot of voters would miss them, but that many associated those knifes with crime and violence, and would welcome such a ban.

The problem is: The same could happen to swords, once some deranged idiot goes on a rampage swinging a sharp blade.
I flinch every time, i hear about someone attacking another person with a sword in Germany. Once the yellow press picks it up, some politicians might do so, too...


But i disagree regarding Stevens post about swords not being weapons.
There's swords and swords.

Is my 420 Steel - decorative Katana a weapon? No, though it looks like one?
Are my blunt sparring longsword and saber weapons? No, though they could be used as such. Their primary purpose is different.

Are my really sharp Paul Chen Katana or my friend's Crecy weapons?
Yes, even though we only use them for cutting tests and solo drills.
They are designed as weapons.
Anachronistic weapons, but weapons. And they are a lot more dangerous than blunted/ decorative swords.
And even if I did not think so, people arguing for a ban of swords would keep thinking this way.
It's a bit like comparing an air pistol to a Glock-17 Autoloader... just my two cents.

Edit: I do not want to ban swords, but I understand why people would want to forbit them, especially if they do not own one.
View user's profile Send private message
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,148

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 9:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Micha Hofmann wrote:
Are my really sharp Paul Chen Katana or my friend's Crecy weapons?
Yes, even though we only use them for cutting tests and solo drills.
They are designed as weapons.
Anachronistic weapons, but weapons. And they are a lot more dangerous than blunted/ decorative swords.
And even if I did not think so, people arguing for a ban of swords would keep thinking this way.


You're right. They're weapons. But so are flint arrowheads, and so are stone hatchets. But those last two examples aren't really thought of as weapons in the minds of the general public, they're archaic oddities. I think Stephen is right in saying that at this point we need to play the side of swords not being modern weapons, or at least no more than like those two examples I gave. Otherwise sword owners will eventually start to be viewed as dangerous, because "there's no good reason to own such a weapon."

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Vote on swords being banned
Page 1 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum