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Don Stanko




Location: ohio
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 6:41 pm    Post subject: Latin Translation Needed         Reply with quote

Hello everyone. Any help with this latin phrase will be greatly appreciated. I got it from a 17th century pappenheimer rapier. The phrase was stamped on the blade, incorperated within a makers mark of Wilhelm Wersberg, circa 1620. On one side it has the makers name and the standard "me fecit solingen". On the other side the latin phrase "Gloria - Virtutem - Sequitum". Due to some oxidation, I may have misread a letter or two.

Again, any help translating the latin text would be much appreciated. Thanks!
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Alexander Ren




Location: Florida
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe Solingen is a city in Germany where a number of swords were made. (Someone please confirm or correct me on this.) The rest of that text I don't know about.

I think the other side says "Glory, Virtue, and Sanctity" but I am not possitive. I am going off of a little Italian that I know of plus a little bit of Latin from when I sang in a choir.

Alex

"The more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed in battle."
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R. D. Simpson




Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From the smattering of Latin I've picked up over the years, I think Alexander is partly correct. Gloria=glory or fame, virtutem=virtue (or possibly valor). Sequitum, though, I didn't recognize, except that it seems to share the same root as sequitur (to follow). I ran it through an online translator and it came back as "to follow."
Since the inscription was found in a martial context, I would guess its translation to be "Fame Follows Valor," or "Glory Follows Valor," if you prefer.
Cool inscription.
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Alexander Ren




Location: Florida
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 8:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That makes sense. Thanks for the correction... Alex
"The more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed in battle."
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R. D. Simpson




Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexander Ren wrote:
That makes sense. Thanks for the correction... Alex


I wouldn't really call it a correction . . . more an alternative guess. Big Grin
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Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"me fecit Solingen" means "I was made in Solingen"
Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Thu 02 Feb, 2006 1:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Latin is an inflected language with case endings, as Old English was.

Solingen did me. Quite common the me fecit (he/she/it did me), it is often found in paintings, sculptures, any rtwork: John me fecit, John made me.
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Thu 02 Feb, 2006 2:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gloria - Virtutem - Sequitum no , it is likely to be GLORIA VIRTVTEM SEQUITUR, Glory follows virtue , glory comes from virtue
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Don Stanko




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PostPosted: Thu 02 Feb, 2006 7:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you everyone. I have very little knowledge of Latin and I was stumped on this one. When reviewing the inscription the last word was quite tricky. The Q was printed in a way that made it look like a backwards P, which made a word that wasn't in any dictionary. I suppose it does make sense to inscribe a guiding moral phrase on an instrument which is capable of taking a life. It might influence a person to contemplate a decision made during a moment of passion.

Thank you again for your help. Don
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R. D. Simpson




Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Feb, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don Stanko wrote:
I suppose it does make sense to inscribe a guiding moral phrase on an instrument which is capable of taking a life. It might influence a person to contemplate a decision made during a moment of passion.


But keep in mind that the Latin concept of virtue included valor. In the US, our current concept of virtue is much narrower and weaker than the concept of virtue in classical thought. When a person is described as virtuous today, we typically think of them as being celibate and mild-mannered. That wasn't the case in classical thought.
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Don Stanko




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PostPosted: Thu 02 Feb, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good point! I didn't think of it that way. I suppose morals are an ever changing thing.

I do remember seeing an often imitated inscription "Do not draw me without reason, do not sheath me without honor", I guess that was the direction my mind was going with this inscription. But they might not be parallel to each other.
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Alexander Ren




Location: Florida
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Feb, 2006 5:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don Stanko wrote:
"Do not draw me without reason, do not sheath me without honor"


I like that one; that is a very good thing to remember in other areas then the martial sense. I almost wish I had that branded on my tongue a few times in the past when I said things that I am not so proud of now.

And it's better than how a sword in on of the Norse sagas was supposed to posses the person who drew it so that they had to kill someone no matter who they were.

Alex

"The more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed in battle."
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Fri 03 Feb, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

R. D. Simpson wrote:
Don Stanko wrote:
I suppose it does make sense to inscribe a guiding moral phrase on an instrument which is capable of taking a life. It might influence a person to contemplate a decision made during a moment of passion.


But keep in mind that the Latin concept of virtue included valor. In the US, our current concept of virtue is much narrower and weaker than the concept of virtue in classical thought. When a person is described as virtuous today, we typically think of them as being celibate and mild-mannered. That wasn't the case in classical thought.


Virtus comes from vir, man, in the sense that it had until modern era it meant bravery as well as perseverance and hard - work, sense of duty.

Machiavelly says that success depends on virtý and fortuna together, virtus and good fortune.

Even in today italian virtý has simply a religious meaning, while in our past it was virtus and as such it was often used in descpritpion of uomini d'arme and condottieri.
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Chris Holzman





Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 124

PostPosted: Fri 03 Feb, 2006 4:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno Giordan wrote:
[
Virtus comes from vir, man, in the sense that it had until modern era it meant bravery as well as perseverance and hard - work, sense of duty.


As my Latin professor used to say, "a 'homo' can be anyone with the appropriate parts, but it takes a manly man, to be a vir"
Indeed, I think in the Pro Caelio, there are a couple of lines where Caelius is described by Cicero as "vir" and his accuser or the opposing counsel as "homo", suggesting that Caelius is more of a man.. the same was often done with Hic, Ille, and Iste, in roman court proceedings, as your own client was "hic vir" and the opponent was "iste homo" or "that person.." and Iste has a pejorative sense to it. Correctly, it would be "ille" rather than iste - but I digress

Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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