Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Looking for info on Bicoque helmets Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 918

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2006 3:52 am    Post subject: Looking for info on Bicoque helmets         Reply with quote

I ran into a nice pic of a bicoque helmet I would like for myself sooner or later.

I'm looing for infos on its construction and history, as well as patterns .

This helmet appears in modern era iconography very often, especially on wine tags, however it seems to be fairly rare in museums and on the web.



 Attachment: 23.32 KB
bicoque.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Wolfgang Armbruster





Joined: 03 Apr 2005

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2006 4:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've only seen one example of this helmet-type yet, namely in the DHM in Berlin. I guess it's the same piece.

The Weisskunig biography of Maximilian I. shows helmets like this one a couple of times, so I guess they were not that rare. However, Armets and Sallets look more useful to me. It's a cool design though Happy

View user's profile Send private message
Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 918

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2006 6:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you wolfgang. It is the same web place whre I saw my helmet.

I guess it is an early armet, the first after the great bascinet evolved definitively into the armet itself.

BTW

Mind has its own place too ...
View user's profile Send private message
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2006 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I noticed this helmet a while back and its shape has stuck with me. There something very "Metropolis" (for those who've seen the silent film) about its shape to me almost "art d'eco" a'la the peak of the style in the 1920's. Don't know why it hit me that way just did.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 918

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2006 7:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This page gives a little history and a pic

http://users.wpi.edu/~jforgeng/HarnessIQP/helmets3.html

IMO this is one of the most beautiful forms, the knight helmet that exists in collective imagination .

I hope that more informations could be raised on it
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,192

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2006 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not too good for someone even a bit claustrophobic. Eek! And trying to retie your shoelaces when wearing it would be a real challenge .

But, that said it is a seriously attractive helm if only from a sculptural point of view.

Oh, I have a source for a painting that shows this type of helm: MEDIEVAL WARFARE, H.W. Koch, © 1978, page 136
Caption: With lances couched at the ready, the Baron of Normandy and his troops attack . ( Vigiles de Charles VII, fifteenth century) ( Excellent book by the way. )

In foreground two Knights have this kind of helm, in the background most of the other Knights wear Salade & Bevor.

Sorry I still don't have a digital camera or scanner to post Picts. ( Just have not stopped buying swords / armour / pollearms long enough to prioritize buying a digital camera. )

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 918

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2006 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Not too good for someone even a bit claustrophobic. Eek! And trying to retie your shoelaces when wearing it would be a real challenge .

But, that said it is a seriously attractive helm if only from a sculptural point of view.

Oh, I have a source for a painting that shows this type of helm: MEDIEVAL WARFARE, H.W. Koch, © 1978, page 136
Caption: With lances couched at the ready, the Baron of Normandy and his troops attack . ( Vigiles de Charles VII, fifteenth century) ( Excellent book by the way. )

In foreground two Knights have this kind of helm, in the background most of the other Knights wear Salade & Bevor.

Sorry I still don't have a digital camera or scanner to post Picts. ( Just have not stopped buying swords / armour / pollearms long enough to prioritize buying a digital camera. )


Jean, I guess you could say something pregnant on the name itself.

If I'm not wrong it is french
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,192

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno:

French word, yes, but not one you would use in everyday conversation.

Bicoque: my French dictionary define Bicoque as a badly fortified place. A small town. A house of low value.

Now, I don't think that this is what the word means in an armour context and this is just that this dictionary doesn't deal with specialized terms dealing with arms and armour.

Now looking up the word COQUE: You get eggshell or the hull of a boat. If you had Bi in front of a word in French it mean Two of the word it modifies. I.E. Bi-Coque or " Two " -Coque.

So I would think that the meaning is a " Double- Shell Helmet ": This is what would be my best guess. Idea Question

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 918

PostPosted: Tue 24 Jan, 2006 3:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very good Jean, I guess the two shells theory is exact.

Bicoque is akin to the italian word bicocca (hovel, bad kept hut or house in a very poor shape, shanty).

The latter would be meaningless with reference to an helmet, while the bi - shell theory is quite good.

In effect this is an early armet (again french since the italian word is elmo chiuso, closed helmet), it features two hinged lower halves that give this shell impression.

I hoped that since the word is french more informations could be found in the french cultural area.

Now your answer makes me think that the bicoque term could be wrong, even if I found it in the website of the deutsche museum in Berlin.



BTW my mother tongue is standard italian, as of local languages I speak east lombard and venetian.
View user's profile Send private message
Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 918

PostPosted: Tue 24 Jan, 2006 4:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bingo, I have found an explanation: the rightest name is bicoquet

Here there is a diagram and a good description

http://www.cafe.rapidus.net/gcayouet/moyenage/Bicoque1.htm

jean was right, forme ovoide, oval shaped
View user's profile Send private message
Wolfgang Armbruster





Joined: 03 Apr 2005

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Tue 24 Jan, 2006 4:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
I noticed this helmet a while back and its shape has stuck with me. There something very "Metropolis" (for those who've seen the silent film) about its shape to me almost "art d'eco" a'la the peak of the style in the 1920's. Don't know why it hit me that way just did.


I agree. That helmet looks very modern , especially the close-fitting design that imitates the human head and the neck looks awesome.

Just looked the helmet up on the site of the DHM. It's from 1440 and wheighs about 4,7 kg Eek!
Maybe it was an helmet made to be worn only when on horseback or for tournaments.

Link: http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/eisenkleider/..._45-56.htm

The DHM seems to have a special exhibition about the history of armor from the middle-ages and the early renaissance.
Lots of interesting essays there, unfortunately only in German.
View user's profile Send private message
James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 529

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jan, 2006 9:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The piece is in the Deutsches Historisches Museum in Berlin, Inv. Nr. W 1012, alternate nr. 12.60. Information given is; "Gesamthohe: 35 cm, L.: 31.5 cm, B. der Glocke: 21.5cm, H. und B. des Gesichtsausschnittes je 13 cm, Metallstarke des Visiers an den Randern 2 bis 2.5 mm, in der Mitte 4mm, an der Stern 4mm, der Wangenstucke 2 bis 2.5 mm, Gesamptgewicht: 4770g. Date is given as c. 1440. I apologise for the lack of proper umlauts.
jamesarlen.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 529

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jan, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P.S. It really is a fascinating piece; very little German armour from this decade has survived. Helms of this type could have been fairly common. It's not really a grand bacinet, since its visor and the shape of the chin and neck show that it moved with the head, but only in a very limited way, causing it to have some of the characteristics of the grand bacinet. Its skull shape is similar to Churburg armet 18.
jamesarlen.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Wolfgang Armbruster





Joined: 03 Apr 2005

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jan, 2006 6:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does anybody have a picture of this particular armet? I heard that that's the helmet which originally belonged to the Churburg Harness with the Barbuta. I've never seen this helmet, but heard a lot about it Sad
View user's profile Send private message
Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 918

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jan, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Today I was able to read a copy of Lombard armors by Boccia, there are some of this tournament armors still in existence.

One is a Missaglia piece, I hope I will be able to do some scans of my photocopies.

Alas libraries in My area, even if they own all Boccia's works, won't lent them at home.

To photocopy them in libraries is costly (ten cents a copy).

I have a book on XV and XVI century armor (t"he stone dinner - guest") that shows a similar piece, but far more munition style, on display at the Musee de l'Armè of Paris.
View user's profile Send private message
Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 677

PostPosted: Sun 18 Dec, 2011 3:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry to necro this thread, but I have two quick queries or so:

I have become so infatuated by this helmet that, hopefully mid next year, I'll be commissioning one (and before the year is out I'll post it on the "Show us your Helms" thread Big Grin ).

My first question is thus: It appears to have many holes around the edge for what I assume would be a liner. However, we know that wearing of a maille standard was common place (yet the form fitted nature of the neck suggests minimal padding or even none bar the helmet liner), with this in mind it appears to have fewer regular holes above the aforementioned ones that one might assume could be used as vereilles to suspend a aventail. So what would be more appropriate? I assume the former.

And secondly, I have built a stuffed helmet liner, which whilst as fitted as one can expect does not cover the chin. Judging by the stream lined nature of the helm in question I am beginning to second guess myself and wonder if perhaps 5mm of quilted fabric might be better suited and whether or not to cover my chin? That being said I feel confident that the stuffed one I have built would be more than sufficient to withstand a glanced lance.


Cheers guys.

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
View user's profile Send private message
Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Wed 28 Dec, 2011 2:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bshford Dean's work on (then-)modern armour in the 1920s mentioned that this kind of visor with a very large number of tiny openings was liable to create a vertigo-inducing moiré effect. It might not be an issue with the original bycoque design, though, seeing as it's fixed to the shoulder so that it wouldn't (or at least shouldn't!) move around much relative to your head (and eyes).
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Looking for info on Bicoque helmets
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum