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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,808

PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 10:06 am    Post subject: Odd Sword Reference From Early 18th Century         Reply with quote

Odd to me anyway ;)

While looking at some other history, a series of references came up relating " making hollow sword blades."

Hollow Sword Blades

Are they just using figurative speech here?

Cheers

GC


From 1704
Quote:

Sword-blade Company, Bill.
The Earl of Stamford reported from the Lords Committees, the Bill, intituled, "An Act to discharge the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword Blades in England, of the Sum of Eighteen Thousand Eight Hundred Sixty-four Pounds Seven Shillings, One Penny Half-penny, by Mistake overcharged in the Purchase-money for several forfeited and other Estates and Interests in Ireland, purchased by them," as fit to pass, without any Amendment.


Then in 1708
Quote:

An Act for limiting a Time for Persons to come in and make their Claims to any of the forfeited Estates, and other Interests in Ireland, sold by the Trustees for Sale of those Estates to the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword-blades in England, and divers other Purchasers.


Talk about dragging your feet Wink
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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 10:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Could it mean something like "swords of bad quality"?

Making swords that are actually hollow seems to be a bit too much work for what it is worth...

Johan Schubert Moen
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional



Location: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 716

PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Odd Sword Reference From Early 18th Century         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
Odd to me anyway Wink

While looking at some other history, a series of references came up relating " making hollow sword blades."

Hollow Sword Blades

Are they just using figurative speech here?

Cheers

GC


From 1704
Quote:

Sword-blade Company, Bill.
The Earl of Stamford reported from the Lords Committees, the Bill, intituled, "An Act to discharge the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword Blades in England, of the Sum of Eighteen Thousand Eight Hundred Sixty-four Pounds Seven Shillings, One Penny Half-penny, by Mistake overcharged in the Purchase-money for several forfeited and other Estates and Interests in Ireland, purchased by them," as fit to pass, without any Amendment.


Then in 1708
Quote:

An Act for limiting a Time for Persons to come in and make their Claims to any of the forfeited Estates, and other Interests in Ireland, sold by the Trustees for Sale of those Estates to the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword-blades in England, and divers other Purchasers.


Talk about dragging your feet Wink


From my research, I believe that they are referring to what we now call "hollow-ground" blades. Here's a bit of history from another web page that illustrates this:

The process of hollow grinding was a German trade secret. In 1690, the Hollow Sword Blade Company was formed in England to produce hollow ground sword blades using imported German swordsmiths. Although the original company failed, one of the swordsmiths, Herman Mohll, set up a sword manufacturing business which continued to produce swords and bayonets until it was taken over by Wilkinson Sword in 1922. (In 1832, the name was changed from Mohll to Mole.) (from The Civil War Antiques Preservation Society web page)

The original name of the Hollow Sword Company was "The Governor and Company for Making Hollow Sword-blades in England." They really lost their way over the years and got into land speculation (getting lands in Ireland granted to them in exchange for military debts, including Blarney Castle of all things) and tried to start their own bank. They ended up going bankrupt and became a legend among accounts from what I could gather.

Best,

Howy

Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com


Last edited by Howard Waddell on Wed 23 Nov, 2005 12:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Whew...and here I was thinking that hollow grinding was common... Interesting facts Howard, that's for sure, thanks!

Johan Schubert Moen
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional



Location: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 716

PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 11:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan S. Moen wrote:
Whew...and here I was thinking that hollow grinding was common... Interesting facts Howard, that's for sure, thanks!

Johan Schubert Moen


Sure thing, Johan! These tidbits are what us sword geeks live for! When we started doing hollow-grinding, I did some research to see what the tradition was, and what little I have been able to dig up is fascinating.

Best,

Howy

Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,808

PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Howy,thanks for fleshing that out a bit. I had run into it while looking for information on cutlers.
I was pretty sure they weren't just using flowery rethoric and your information about the company history makes great sense of it.

That this led to the root of Mole
is a serindipitous bonus (news to me)

There are an awful lot of records there about legislation and regulation of the arms trades. Some great records of restrictions placed on the manufacture and distribution of goods/weapons/armour.

Cheers

GC
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Wolfgang Armbruster





Joined: 03 Apr 2005

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov, 2005 1:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
From my research, I believe that they are referring to what we now call "hollow-ground" blades. Here's a bit of history from another web page that illustrates this:

The process of hollow grinding was a German trade secret. In 1690, the Hollow Sword Blade Company was formed in England to produce hollow ground sword blades using imported German swordsmiths


Now that's surprising! Eek! But I still have some questions.
I would be very interested where you got this information from.
I mean, even if it was a trade secret, wouldn't it be possible for a talented blade-smith to grasp the trick by examining such a blade? (However, maybe I know not enough about blade-making Big Grin)
Did that mean, that there were no hollow-ground blades in other countries except imported blades? If I had been a smith at that time, the first thing I would have done is to try to copy such a blade.
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