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Greg Griggs




Location: Houston, TX
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2005 9:14 am    Post subject: What books do you suggest for weapon training?         Reply with quote

Over the years I've played around with edged weapons, and had a small amount of actual Japanese sword training, but now I'd like to get a bit more serious in handling Bastard, Long, hand-and-a-half, and Two-handed swords the proper way. I know Patrick K. will be a great help, but being the anal person that I am, I would like to get some ideas from you guys on books/cds that show and describe the different forms and methods of swordplay in the real world (or the world as each writer saw it, HAH!). My thanks in advance.

Greg

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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2005 9:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I won't type out a list, just come over and look at the library. Big Grin

I'm sure others will have some good advice.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2005 10:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I strongly suggest the library as well! I know I've got more than a few books that I suggest for learning the sword:

http://www.myArmoury.com/books/list.php?mode=user&u=126
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2005 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Relatively few historical manuals have been commerically published. ARMA is the best source I know of for both the published and unpublished material. There's a great collection of it available free-of-charge on this page:

http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Felix Wang




Location: Fresno, CA
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2005 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Depends on what you are looking for. There is an Italian longsword tradition, and a German longsword tradition. The original manuals are the basis of modern interpretation, but the original texts were not meant for beginners, and are not written in a modern format. I know of two books written for the modern beginner, Guy Windsor's The Swordsman's Companion (in the Italian tradition) and Christian Tobler's Fighting with the German Longsword. Either would be a good place to start.
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2005 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: What books do you suggest for weapon training?         Reply with quote

Greg Griggs wrote:
Over the years I've played around with edged weapons, and had a small amount of actual Japanese sword training, but now I'd like to get a bit more serious in handling Bastard, Long, hand-and-a-half, and Two-handed swords the proper way.

Woah... bastards, longswords, and hand-and-a-half swords? Hope you can fit all that in! Razz

Greg Griggs wrote:
I know Patrick K. will be a great help, but being the anal person that I am, I would like to get some ideas from you guys on books/cds that show and describe the different forms and methods of swordplay in the real world (or the world as each writer saw it, HAH!).

I know PK was referring to his actual, physical library... Bill Grandy directed you to the Books section, where they've listed a few good titles of their liking (or disliking - see the rating and/or the review) in their booklists. I have done the same, as have a number of others. Sean hit on another link - ARMA - which has a lot of info. Chivalry Bookshelf carries a good selection, including a video by Ochs, a German fetschule, to offer an alternative/supplement to other works in the German line, such as Tobler's pair of books. There's also the Italian style, and you can find a bit of info on that (and other topics) on Schola St. George's website.

If you want a personal recommendation from me, I'll second what Felix said... I personally lean towards the German tradition, but both are great.

Having PK close by will be nice... pick his brain, and get out in the yard with him, too...

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2005 2:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The most recent and best researched stuff is all available from Chivalry Bookshelf. This includes Guy Windsor's Swordsman's Companion for Italian longsword, Christian Tobler's Fighting with the German Longsword, for (obviously) German longsword and the Ochs DVD, also on German longsword. Pretty much everything else is dated, some material very badly dated.

Looking at the original treatises is also very useful if you're that way inclined. The best collection of them is at AEMMA.

Cheers
Stephen

Stephen Hand
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Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

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Taylor Ellis




PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov, 2005 12:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You could also wait for Stephen's forthcoming Silver book or Paul Wagner's English longsword book. I know I am. Happy
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Greg Griggs




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov, 2005 7:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies! I see there are several resources for everything from the raw beginner to the seasoned practitioner, and I'm looking forward to delving into them all. I'm sure PK will be happy to beat me senseless trying to work out some of these moves, LOL. Great bunch of folks here, glad to have found you all.
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Ralph Rudolph




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov, 2005 8:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As the Ochs DVD is mentioned, I might add another DVD about the German tradition, produced by Agilitas TV here in Germany. If you don't mind that it's spoken in German, the video is excellent and instructive. The two instructors are from Ochs (hm - maybe it is the Ochs-DVD mentioned earlier Idea ).

Click on www.agilitas.tv and look for "Langes Schwert Teil 1 nach Johannes Liechtenauer".
It's a useful support for your exercise with the longsword.
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov, 2005 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ralph Rudolph wrote:
As the Ochs DVD is mentioned, I might add another DVD about the German tradition, produced by Agilitas TV here in Germany. If you don't mind that it's spoken in German, the video is excellent and instructive. The two instructors are from Ochs (hm - maybe it is the Ochs-DVD mentioned earlier Idea ).


My German isn't exactly stellar, but it does share a nearly identical title, and the contents seem to be the same... I know it was initially released in German, then redubbed in English. My guess... same thing. This is helpful, though, since you have seen it and give it a thumbs-up. One of these days, I do plan on picking up a copy.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov, 2005 9:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Griggs wrote:
Thanks for the replies! I see there are several resources for everything from the raw beginner to the seasoned practitioner, and I'm looking forward to delving into them all.

More good stuff is coming, too... these early works laid a foundation, sparked a lot of interest. It continues to evolve...

If I had one further suggestion - catch up with PK for a little while, and try to determine a primary interest or two... focusing on every style and era of swordsmanship, while it sounds fun, is actually very frustrating. It also lends to mediocrity... if one style gets difficult, rather than working through those issues, just switch. Jack of all trades, master of none... You'll get more enjoyment out of it that way, too...

Greg Griggs wrote:
I'm sure PK will be happy to beat me senseless trying to work out some of these moves, LOL. Great bunch of folks here, glad to have found you all.

I'd be happy to beat you senseless, too... bet a few others would offer. Razz

Ok, seriously, I'd love to have a dedicated, consistent sparring and training partner. I'd bet both of you would benefit from the exercise in a number of ways...

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Greg Griggs




Location: Houston, TX
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov, 2005 11:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:
If I had one further suggestion - catch up with PK for a little while, and try to determine a primary interest or two... focusing on every style and era of swordsmanship, while it sounds fun, is actually very frustrating. It also lends to mediocrity... if one style gets difficult, rather than working through those issues, just switch. Jack of all trades, master of none... You'll get more enjoyment out of it that way, too...


I'd be happy to beat you senseless, too... bet a few others would offer. Razz



That's the idea of initially looking at 3-4 different styles a first; then to narrow it down to one main and a possible second to play with on off days. Good point, though. Thanks.

After the picture Patrick posted, it will be more me beating him senseless!!!!!!! Eek!

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov, 2005 11:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yup, that Ochs DVD has " Agilitas.Tv " written at the top of the DVD box: So it seems to be the English dubbed version of the original version.

And Aaron, run don't walk to buy this one: With your experience I think you will get a lot out of it, at least for me I may be at the bottom of the learning curve but with this DVD I am getting a lot more out of the books, you can only get so much from sequential pictures in a book if you have never seen the actual movements in action. Now I can read the text, look at the pictures and start forming a mental image of all the in between motion between pictures A to D. Big Grin

If it wasn't already obvious I highly recommend this DVD. Laughing Out Loud

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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov, 2005 11:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Griggs wrote:
That's the idea of initially looking at 3-4 different styles a first; then to narrow it down to one main and a possible second to play with on off days. Good point, though. Thanks.

Sounds like a good plan! One isn't better than any other... they all have their merits. I hope you find a ton of enjoyment out of it, and look forward to hearing more!

Greg Griggs wrote:
After the picture Patrick posted, it will be more me beating him senseless!!!!!!! Eek!

Pack a lunch... he's no slacker! Of course, you could get all patriotic... you know... defend your flag! Razz

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Lloyd Clark




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov, 2005 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Really big and heavy ones! Not only do you get a good workout with them but you can use them for weapons when needed Wink (yes, I am being a smartass).

I would agree with everyone else and refer you to the Chivalry Bookshelf for the most up-to-date offerings of quality books on Western Martial Arts.

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov, 2005 12:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Yup, that Ochs DVD has " Agilitas.Tv " written at the top of the DVD box: So it seems to be the English dubbed version of the original version.

Thanks for the verification. I was pretty sure, but my sprechening of the Deutch isn't so good.

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
And Aaron, run don't walk to buy this one: With your experience I think you will get a lot out of it, at least for me I may be at the bottom of the learning curve but with this DVD I am getting a lot more out of the books, you can only get so much from sequential pictures in a book if you have never seen the actual movements in action. Now I can read the text, look at the pictures and start forming a mental image of all the in between motion between pictures A to D. Big Grin

It's well towards, if not at, the top of my list. I'll snag it when I know I'll have the time to put in with it. Right now, I've so much on my work and social plates...

I agree, too... you can look at pictures all day. When there's a start and a stop, but it's apparent that there were intermediate actions (like rotation or a change of direction), you're at a wicked loss for where, how, and why. Often, though close study and experimentation (yeah, get off the couch!!!), you can sort it out. Video helps tremendously.

Speaking of video, I highly advocate filming yourself during drills, too - especially if nobody experienced is watching, but even when there is, it can be an amazing coaching tool.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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