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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 9:00 am    Post subject: Revival Rubber Poleaxe         Reply with quote

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:
If you get that hammer, I absotively, posilutely need a blunt, no BS review of it. They have that hammer and a rondel that can be used for fairly safe training but would fairly closely simulate the weapons.


Off-topic-Bill here again, but I've got both the Revival poleaxe and a pair of their daggers, and some of my students have the daggers as well.

The poleaxe is not a safe, full speed sparring weapon unless if you've got some SERIOUS protection, and I don't think Brian Price (who designed it) ever expected it to be. It allows you to do controlled actions with a safety buffer. But the hammer head is solid enough and with enough mass that you could completely destroy a fencing mask if you hammered into it. Brian Price even said that you could probably knock someone out who's wearing a full steel helm if you tried, and I believe it. That said, it's a really cool training tool. The dagues are flexible enough for thrusting, the head is on the staff tight enough that you can perform any of the binds, trips, and "yanks" on the opponent's staff with ease, and while they're a little lighter than the real thing, this makes them a little safer, too. Like I said, no full speed, full contact bouting with these (and honestly, I don't know if there is such a thing with poleaxes), but you can certainly do a lot of half speed training with these safely, as well as drilling, and they're a lot cheaper than buying steel ones.

The rondel daggers, influenced by the same design as the poleaxe dagues, are a heck of a lot of fun. They're quite flexible for safety, but just rigid enough to perform most traps and locks. There are some arm locks that don't work because these are so flexible, and I know some of the die hard knife fighter practitioners find these too flexible because of that, but personally, I think these are an excellent training tool.

Anyway, back to I.33...
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 10:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Aaron Schnatterly wrote:
They have that hammer and a rondel that can be used for fairly safe training but would fairly closely simulate the weapons.


Off-topic-Bill here again, but I've got both the Revival poleaxe and a pair of their daggers, and some of my students have the daggers as well.

The poleaxe is not a safe, full speed sparring weapon unless if you've got some SERIOUS protection, and I don't think Brian Price (who designed it) ever expected it to be.


Thanks a ton, Bill... guess this was a question of green eggs and green ham, or is it just the eggs that are... I meant that they have the hammer, and that the Rondel daggers as well, and that the daggers are safe (safer?). Didn't mean to imply that a poleaxe would ever be a boffer fun for all ages...

That was precisely the info I was hoping for - that they are useful to gain a feel and to use in light sparring with the proper protection. For this, I was looking toward a full harness for both persons. I actually generally like my sparring buddy... don't want to finish him off for good.

And yes, back to I:33... didn't mean to get us off topic, even as valuable this info is. Should have posted as a separate topic...

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 8:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Heavy armor's not a problem. In fact my friend has the rubber axe from Mandrake armory, also skeletonized. If anything he says it doesn't hit hard enough Eek!


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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 9:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gavin Kisebach wrote:
Heavy armor's not a problem. In fact my friend has the rubber axe from Mandrake armory, also skeletonized. If anything he says it doesn't hit hard enough Eek!


Heh... that's a good group photo you got there. But even in armor, you'd still have to use proper judgement when sparring with these... after all, the poleaxe was designed for fighting against armoured opponents. Rubber or steel, it's still got a fair amount of mass with a whole lot of torque, and most of the tripping and catching actions are all too effective when properly done. In fact, all of the trips and grapples are more of why I think you can't truly do full speed bouting safely with a poleaxe. Plus, I see many of your group use bar grills, the dagues of the poleaxe will definately slip through those, although from what I understand Brian's making a SCA legal variant.

Of course, all of my comments are coming from practicing unarmoured combat, so take that as you will. Happy Still, I do like to put the shiney stuff on from time to time... (if you squint hard enough, you can kind of make out a buckler in the pile of equipment on the ground... yep, that's about as close to on topic as this post is going to get...)



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George Hill




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 1:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Gavin Kisebach wrote:
Heavy armor's not a problem. In fact my friend has the rubber axe from Mandrake armory, also skeletonized. If anything he says it doesn't hit hard enough Eek!


Heh... that's a good group photo you got there. But even in armor, you'd still have to use proper judgement when sparring with these... after all, the poleaxe was designed for fighting against armoured opponents. Rubber or steel, it's still got a fair amount of mass with a whole lot of torque, and most of the tripping and catching actions are all too effective when properly done


Bill, How much tripping have you and your guys done with the poleaxe/polehammer? What are the results like?

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 7:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suggest starting or splitting off this into a Poleaxe topic as I find it very interesting but the original topic is also worth discussing further: The temptation will be great to go back and forth between both subjects to the possible confusion of all !IMHO.

( Not, trying to play moderator here. Wink Laughing Out Loud )

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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 7:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I suggest starting or splitting off this into a Poleaxe topic as I find it very interesting but the original topic is also worth discussing further: The temptation will be great to go back and forth between both subjects to the possible confusion of all !IMHO.

( Not, trying to play moderator here. Wink Laughing Out Loud )


Topic split upon request.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 7:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, I think splitting the topic was a good idea. Now I don't feel so bad. Happy

George Hill wrote:
Bill, How much tripping have you and your guys done with the poleaxe/polehammer? What are the results like?


Well, I've only recently acquired mine, and most of my group haven't gotten there's yet. But from the limited tests, and from Brian Price's poleaxe workshop at WMAW, these work great. The hammer heads need to be hammered onto the pole, but at that point it takes a lot to get them to shift at all. You can tear down at your opponent's shaft and pull at an opponent's shoulder or knee with ease.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 8:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:
For this, I was looking toward a full harness for both persons. I actually generally like my sparring buddy... don't want to finish him off for good.


You know, it depends on how you train, but you don't necessarily need a full harness if you're being judicious. My group doesn't focus on poleaxe, but we do a little bit of light training with it. In the past we've used 6' staves, which weren't ideal, but enough to go through the motions. For this we used fencing masks and padded gloves. I expect to do the same once more of our guys have the poleaxe simulators. We aren't slamming into each other with these, we're going through the forms, sometimes with a fair amount of speed, but always with control in mind, and for that type of training a mask is plenty enough to prevent an accident.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill;

Being a non-trainer I can only guess at what makes good safe training with potentially dangerous things: To me an attitude of exploring the results of one action versus another in the spirit of both participants being simultaneously student & teacher, and with full control over ego and emotion. Every defeat being a positive learning experience as well as any victory.

From my A & A Poleaxe I can imagine that the axe part of the pole axe would be very good at hooking and pulling off balance or even pushing and unbalancing: Although with the pushing it might be resorted to because the opportunity presented itself after a missed attempt to stab with the spike of the Poleaxe.

Anyway, my little un-informed attempt to keep this interesting discussion going. Wink Laughing Out Loud

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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can only speak from an SCA perspective ( which I think is held in quiet distain by many, but that's another thread and I dont think a constructive one) but since all of our fighters are pretty much head to toe in armor, the main concern os weapon weight. If memory serves the total weight of a polearm must be less that 6lbs. in practice noone I've ever met comes close to this, it's just ridiculously heavy; two battles and you be in cardiac arrest.

As has been stated, revival has an SCA variant which has a more rounded butttspike, what would be the advantage of the less rounded version? longer? more historically accurate?

Anyhow we are definitely full speed users, I'm sure that with a helm and some personal restraint these would be very safe.
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have not seen the SCA version of the Revival dague; but my guess is that the size of point required for SCA use is significantly larger than the WMA version. One possible disadvantage of this larger size might be that it would tend to catch onto snags, rather than slipping past them. The WMA version has a relatively small ball at the tip.
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 4:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gavin Kisebach wrote:
I can only speak from an SCA perspective ( which I think is held in quiet distain by many, but that's another thread and I dont think a constructive one) but since all of our fighters are pretty much head to toe in armor, the main concern os weapon weight. If memory serves the total weight of a polearm must be less that 6lbs. in practice noone I've ever met comes close to this, it's just ridiculously heavy; two battles and you be in cardiac arrest... ...Anyhow we are definitely full speed users, I'm sure that with a helm and some personal restraint these would be very safe.

We'll leave the SCA/WMA argument alone... save this one comment. You guys fight hard, so yeah, I'm interested in how this or any other performs at speed with some degree of force with those properly outfitted. I don't know about "very safe" but reasonably, perhaps. Regardless of armour(like substances), this stuff can still hurt - ask me how my kidneys felt after a 2-handed flail caught me...

Gavin Kisebach wrote:
As has been stated, revival has an SCA variant which has a more rounded butttspike, what would be the advantage of the less rounded version? longer? more historically accurate?

Yup. I think the head is the same, but the spike on either end is rounded to 1.25 or 1.5 inches to fit inside SCA rules. Doubt anyone would really notice the change in feel, and, no matter what you do, it's rubber, nobody will be fooled into thinking it's the real deal either way. Personally, I'll hold back in my sparring, and, well, that 1 inch spacing is notably absent in my historical armour, so I'd prefer a more historic version.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 5:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You use flails? Now that is interesting. I would think a flail FAR more dangerous for any kind of WMA/SCA/ETC fighting. The magnification of power is very cool or horrifying, depending on which end you're on. In fact they're explicitly banned for us because they're simply too easy to overpower. If you'd even consider letting someone hit you with a two handed flail, I would think a polehammer would be, again, safe. Of course safety is relative, one mans sport is another man's deathwish.
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am now more interested than ever in this hammer. When (not if) I get one, I'll be sure to post my findings. maybe even a pic or three Big Grin Rest assured, if this thing has a safety limit, we''l find it and report it accordingly.
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 5:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gavin Kisebach wrote:
You use flails? Now that is interesting. I would think a flail FAR more dangerous for any kind of WMA/SCA/ETC fighting. The magnification of power is very cool or horrifying, depending on which end you're on. In fact they're explicitly banned for us because they're simply too easy to overpower. If you'd even consider letting someone hit you with a two handed flail, I would think a polehammer would be, again, safe. Of course safety is relative, one mans sport is another man's deathwish.


Used... about 15 years ago, and padded. Still way nasty - judging from the traces of blood - and cut out after that, if I recall correctly, or at least overly padded from then on. I'm a pretty big guy - the guy wielding it was bigger than me. At that time, I was actually a hell of a fighter - earned my belt. Still makes me cringe, thinking of exactly how that worked... pole struck the side of my shield, head wrapped around, struck me across both kidneys and the small of my back - through a heavy, thick gambeson and a 12 oz wide belt with 16 gauge plate reinforcements. Creased the plates slightly - any less protection, and I may have suffered permenant damage. From then on, 2-handed weapons gained a tremendous amount of respect from me - and a bit of a phobia for training and sparring use. Since one of the pieces I hope to have for demonstrations is a poleaxe (probably A&A's poleaxe, actually, unless I stumble on another that really grabs my attention and pocketbook), using something like this would be a much saner/safer alternative to actually going out and beating on someone with the real thing.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Oct, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Having played around a little more with the Revival poleaxe simulators, I must say that they are really, really cool. At first I was a little bit leary of the mass on the head, but provided you have controlled partners (or some really heavy gauge armor) they're actually pretty safe over all. They're a little lighter than the real thing, and that has to be taken into account when bouting, but you can still do a lot of realistic techniques with them. The only real problem I've found so far is that the rubber heads can sometimes stick together. For instance, if I strike and my opponent sets me aside, I might try to use the hammer head to pull back against the opposing staff. There've been a few times where this caused the rubber head to pull against the other rubber head, and there was quite a bit of resistance in trying to "let go" with it due to the rubber sticking to rubber. That's pretty minor, but it's worth mentioning. Otherwise, these are really great tools.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Oct, 2005 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill;

For the rubber sticking to rubber problem how about covering one of the heads with some sort of tape with a slick glossy finish. you might want this easily removable if you don't want to mar the surface, although with a training tool like this, aesthetic considerations are a low priority.

You could test the " slickness " of various tapes surfaces when in contact with the rubber before using it.

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