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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2005 9:29 pm    Post subject: The Knight vs The Vinland         Reply with quote

I've been saving my pennies (and brownie points with my wife) for a quality sword, and now I'm stuck. I know I want an Albion. I love norse art and viking era arms, art, clothing, etc . The vinland is gorgeous, and fits my aesthetic interests. I tear up just looking at it.

Here's the rub. I am a stick jock. As far as rattan combat goes, I like to thrust, not to excess, but its an important arrow in my quiver. If I'm going to pony up the dough for a quality sword, I'd obviously prefer a sword that compliments rather than inhibits this proclivity. So far as I can tell without actually handling one, Vinlands are flat, broad, dedicated cutters (as they should be).

The Knight, however, appears to be by design far superior for the thrust. It sounds by all accounts like a joy to wield, and I'm guessing (I hate guessing) that it would be a more versatile weapon. Furthermore When I do use a shield, I've been using a heater.Moreover I'm not familiar with the grips used for type X swords,and have no idea how they would effect my technique. Furthermore, Albion is having a sale and I'm overthinking this.

So here's my question - how does the vinland handle thrusts? Is it a bad idea to even try thrusting, as it is clearly not designed as a thruster? How well does the Vinland handle in general? Is the knight a better match if I want to keep my options open?

Both are gorgeous. Both are well made. I would be proud to own either. I realize I am splitting hairs, and if i could i would just buy both. The knight seems to win for versatility, the Vinland for idiomatic expression. Ideas? Question

There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Thomas Hoogendam




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PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2005 3:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Although the Knight, or better yet, the Type XII is designed with thrusting capabilities, it still isn't a dedicated thruster. IMO, a sword that has both good cutting and thrusting capabilities would a Type XVI, like the Squire or the Prince, or a Type XVIII, like the Kingmaker.

I have a Knight, and without a doubt one of the best handling swords I've ever had the pleasure of handling. I can really recommend it. Happy
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Doug Gardner




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PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2005 4:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You might want to consider the Sovereign, as well. It is well suited to sword and buckler work, and can both cut and thrust. I wasn't very attracted to it until I picked one up. It is a very surprising blade. It probably isn't as appropriate for work with a heater as a Knight would be, but certainly worth your time to investigate.

--Doug

Doug Gardner
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2005 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've handled both a little and, as expected, they are quite different, as they should be. The Knight will be better in the thrust, in terms of handling and point acuteness, in my opinion. The Vinland, like a good Viking sword should, has a good amount of blade presence, or mass in the blade, designed to give more power to the cut. That same blade presence will not help you align the tip for precise thrusting. Against a lightly- or un-armoured target, you'd be able to thrust/stab with it, it will just take a little more effort to get the tip to end up where you want it. The wide tip and flexible blade will hinder thrusting somewhat. The Knight is a more versatile design. While still primarily a cutter, it has some thrusting ability which would be effective against lightly armoured opponents. Its tip is more acute and its balance is typically less blade-heavy, making the point more agile.

The Knight is one of the most pleasant-handling Albion single-handers that I've played with. It just feels nice in the hand. For a little more thrusting ability without sacrificing cutting ability, the Sovereign may be a good choice, too, as Doug suggested. The Type XIV blade (like on the Sovereign) generally tapers a little more than the Type XII blade (the Knight), though many blades ride the line between the two types. The Sovereign would be appropriate with a heater shield, and it seems to have been very popular during its heyday, based on effigial representations. By the way, our Features page has articles on most of the Oakeshott types. Albion's NG swords are meant to be good representations of the Oakeshott Type they represent.

Happy

ChadA

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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2005 3:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As you've said, the easiest thing is just to get both. Big Grin

The Vinland was the first Next Gen I owned. It's no Jarl, but it's a nice sword just the same. Wink It is a cutting dedicated design but you can thrust with it. It would be a decent thruster against a soft unarmoured target. However, the Knight is obviously superior in this regard. (since it's an advancement in design over swords like the Vinland that should be no surprise) The design of the Knight's hilt makes thrusting maneuvers much more comfortable as well.

The Vinland will have more of a blade presence, but this really doesn't make it a more efficient cutter. The Knight may possess a more acute sense of profile taper, but it's balance allows you to get a lot of velocity going in a cut before impact. Consequently, the Knight doesn't give up anything in the cutting department.

It's really and apples to oranges comparison as the swords are two quite different designs. If you're after a sword with more of a dual-purpose capability then the Knight is it. Truth be told, if I were you I'd pass by the Vinland altogether. I'd buy the Knight and then save up for one of the higher end Albion vikings, the Jarl, Huscarl, or the Berserkr. The Vinland is okay but those are far, far nicer swords.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2005 4:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's very sound logic and I think that's what I'll do. Knight it is. Thanks for the help, everyone. As I said I hate guessing, and I can't lay hands on the swords, so its nice having guidance from those who have. Thanks for the help.
There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Joel Chesser




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PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2005 4:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

another option would be to go with a different viking sword. It seems to me that the blade on the Jarl would be a slightly better thruster, though more expensive. The Gaddhjalt on the other hand in the same price as the Vinland and has blade profile similar in shape to the Knight. just my 2 cents on the matter. Good luck on your decision, i know its a tough one.
..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."

- Luke 22:36
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Kenneth Enroth




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PostPosted: Thu 04 Aug, 2005 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Would you say the knight is the easiest to wield of Albion's onehanders?
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 04 Aug, 2005 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenneth Enroth wrote:
Would you say the knight is the easiest to wield of Albion's onehanders?


No, as I think that would be a gross oversimplification. I haven't handled an Albion Next Gen that didn't have very good handling qualities for the given type.

I will say that the Knight has one of the most pleasing combinations of handling qualities (in terms of cutting, thrusting, tracking, recovery,etc.) that I have experienced in an Albion single-hander.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Taylor Ellis




PostPosted: Thu 04 Aug, 2005 8:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The other thing to consider is that none of these swords were designed to be used in the same manner as people use rattan sticks. My advice would be to get the one that appeals to you most (which seems to be the viking styled ones) and look at how they were used in history. You'll find the historical techniques to be far superior to modern SCA techniques, and you'll also find those viking swords to be perfect for the correct techniques. Out of the Albion swords out at the moment I like the Jarl, but I bet the Thegn will be sweet... Happy
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 04 Aug, 2005 9:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Taylor makes a very good point. I was a "stick jock" for a number of years myself. You won't find a rattan club that handles like a real sword, or vice versa. So if you're trying to find a sword that correlates to your stick fighting style it a pointless effort. You're better off just picking the sword you like the most and learning it's ins and outs.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Thu 04 Aug, 2005 10:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Truthfully thats largely whats spurring me towards buying a "REAL" sword. I fully recognise that a fishbat is not a sword, even with the very convincing application of silver duct tape. I'm not going to throw away money on a "sword like object" that simply reinforces my bad habits with basket hilted clubs.
I think learning proper technique with real steel may translate well into rattan combat, maybe not, but I have no illusions about the reverse. Along the way I'd like to learn more about historical weapon construction, which, by the way is why I love myArmoury in the first place. If nothing else I like big shiney objects. Who doesn't?

There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Felix Wang




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Aug, 2005 6:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My thought is the same as Joel Chesser - consider the Gaddhjalt. It is a Viking sword, but one in the transition to later knightly swords. It is clearly meant to thrust as well as cut, and could plausibly be used with a heater.
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Edward Hitchens




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Aug, 2005 8:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gavin,

Though it appears you already went with the Knight (good choice!), I was going to suggest waiting for the Hospitaller to come out. I own a Type XI and it's a decent thruster. Plus, I it would fall around the 11th century which is just after the Viking period and during the Medieval period. Just a thought. You certainly can't go wrong with the Knight! -Ted

"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
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Jonathon Janusz





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PostPosted: Sat 06 Aug, 2005 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For what it is worth, I think the Gaddhjalt is really still very much a cutting sword and based on the input of others about the Knight, you will be far better served by the Knight as a "jack of all trades" kind of package. The Gaddhjalt really shines in my mind as a cavalry weapon or a sword for the guy who needs just a little more reach over the shield wall, so to speak, but I just see it more as a sword to thrust with in a pinch rather than as a primary attack form during my time handling one. I can see the evolutionary process to a sword like the Knight in it, but be very careful about concluding the two swords very close in handling by the profile alone - they are very different weapons.

If down the road you are looking for something later in period, if you want a cutting sword with some significant design inclination as a thruster, might I recommend a type XV (the Poitiers - a wide, sharply tapering diamond cross section blade) or a type XVI as mentioned earlier (from the Albion lineup I might suggest the Prince over the Squire as, if I remember the review correctly, the Prince was a little more agile of the two in the thrust).

Now give me a spike hilt on a short type X (kind of like the inspiration behind Patrick's PJ, but on a shorter blade, more in the ballpark of the other vikings in the Albion line) as my tool of myriad offensive options and you might be on to something. . .
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Aug, 2005 11:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathon Janusz wrote:
....Now give me a spike hilt on a short type X (kind of like the inspiration behind Patrick's PJ, but on a shorter blade, more in the ballpark of the other vikings in the Albion line) as my tool of myriad offensive options and you might be on to something. . .


...And Iīve just finished the waxes for the Reeve and the Baeaux. The Reeve is sort of a cousin of the Gaddhjalt, but with a shorter blade. If the Gaddhjalt might be optimized for the mounted man-at-arms, the Reeve could serve well for those fighting on foot (works on horse back as well I should think).
The Reeve and Bayeaux are both agile weapons with a crisp and quick type X blade. Handling wise they should be close. Itīs a matter if you prefer the disc pommel or the peanut shaped pommel.

Gavin, from what youīve said about your preferences, I think that the Knight is a good choice.
They guys have given you good advice in this thred I think.
Depending on how your taste change/develop you might then turn your eye towards later medieval types ( XIV, XV or XVI) or give in to the urge to go viking. Both options are intertesting Happy
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Brian M




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Aug, 2005 12:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Iīve just finished the waxes for the Reeve and the Baeaux. The Reeve is sort of a cousin of the Gaddhjalt, but with a shorter blade. If the Gaddhjalt might be optimized for the mounted man-at-arms, the Reeve could serve well for those fighting on foot (works on horse back as well I should think).
The Reeve and Bayeaux are both agile weapons with a crisp and quick type X blade. Handling wise they should be close. Itīs a matter if you prefer the disc pommel or the peanut shaped pommel.


Good news! The Bayeaux is at the very top of my list. If the cross looks as nice as that of my Gaddhjalt I'll be very pleased. Is the cross of a similar taper (in both planes) or less taper?
I'll look for the pic when it comes up, but of course it will have to be in my hand (and it will be!) to really appreciate it.

Brian M
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Jonathon Janusz





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PostPosted: Sun 07 Aug, 2005 5:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great to hear, Peter! From the concept drawing, the Reeve's cross seemed more of a bar than a spike and, to be honest, I was put off a bit by the pommel. I think this is one where the drawing just can't begin to do the design in three dimensions justice. I'll keep my eye on both as they develop - thanks Happy

Not to hijack this thread too far, but I was wondering if there were plans somewhere down the line (I know there is so much in development right now that it wouldn't be for quite a while - if nothing else I'm patient Big Grin ) for shorter swords. I have found that my collection is gravitating toward short blades - swords that are sized more as auxiliary or casual carry weapons than warswords or classic long swords - and was wondering if there was anything in this niche at least on the table for consideration. Just to give a point of reference as to what I mean by "short", my swords average approximately 30" overall length (obviously single-hand designs). I know that traditionally these kinds of swords are slower to sell and have a much smaller audience, but I was thinking that with the new Albion business model of limited editions, an occasional short run (100 pieces per model?) of these kinds of swords might just work out.

. . . and how are the Romans coming along?

Thanks!
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Robert B. Allison




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Aug, 2005 6:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You might want to consider, before purchasing the Knight, that Albion offers two other XII one-handers with the identical blade to the Knight but different hilt configurations, to wit, the Laird and the Caithness. I really agonized for a while over which one to purchase, I wanted a 'practical' one-hand sword, but was also going for a certain intangible something, a look if you will. The hilt of the Caithness is influenced by Viking design elements, especially the pommel which is quite similar to the Jarl. It ended up being my choice, and one that I have not regretted for a moment. Same price as the Knight and limited to 500 versus 1000, if that makes any difference.
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Thomas Hoogendam




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Aug, 2005 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix Wang wrote:
My thought is the same as Joel Chesser - consider the Gaddhjalt. It is a Viking sword, but one in the transition to later knightly swords. It is clearly meant to thrust as well as cut, and could plausibly be used with a heater.


I don't really think the Gaddhjalt would make a very good thruster, the Type X and Xa (the Gaddhjalt's blade being very similair to a Type Xa) are still very much cutting swords. If you want a sword that can both cut and thrust, I'd say Type XIV, XVI or XVIII. Those would the ideal choices for a cut and thrust medieval sword.
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