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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 1:05 pm    Post subject: Wool Hood/Chaperone from Revival Clothing.         Reply with quote

I ordered this garment from Revival Clothing a couple of days ago.


The good news is that it arrived very quickly. The bad news is that it's going back because of a lack of quality. The body of the hood is put together well enough, however, the dags at the edge aren't finished at all. In fact, some of them were actively fraying when I removed it from the packaging. There were also scraps of cloth still attached to several of the dags from where the cutters hadn't done a complete job. For a price of around $69.00 USD, including shipping, I had honestly expected a garment that was ready to go, this one isn't.

I was very pleased with the boots I received from Revival Clothing. Unfortunately this item is a bit of a disappointment and will have to be returned.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 1:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am a bit surprised by this... Worried

Does it look as though the edges would normally have been finished, or cut and hope the felt nature would keep it straight? I'm curious, as this is (was?) an item of interest to me.

I just recieved another package from them as well... braies, hosen, shirt, St. George medal, and linnen cotte. All are quite nice (hosen is a bit tight in the calves and thighs, but I have tree trunks for legs). Past clothing items (low boots, turnshoes) have also been just fine.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Daniel Staberg




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For what it's worth
In my experience high quality boardcloth and meltons can be cut and will hardly ever fray around the edges. Kersey might need finishing but I have cloaks made of kersey that have survived several days in a forrest enviorment without any farying along the lower edge despite the fact that I didn't have time to finish it at all.
However the above applies to 100% wool cloth, the 80% wool,/20% synthetics mixes that are far more common fray a lot easier and this increases as you get below an 80% wool content.
The problem could the use of the wrong material for this kind of item

Historic Enterprise offers a hood with dagged edge for $51.95
http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m...20&c=7
The gaments I've purchased form the have always been of the highest quality even I've not seen the hood in question.


Last edited by Daniel Staberg on Thu 28 Jul, 2005 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick;

Well, hopefully it's a problem with only this product or with one that got away without quality control.

It would be good for them to give you and us feeback if you get any. Still if nobody tells them when there is a problem they might loose more customers than if they have a chance to fix the problem.

Aaron;

Oh, do you have their high boots ? Or do you plan to get any ? I also have tree trunks for legs and I would need to be sure that they would fit at calf and thigh level. ( 17" calves and 27" upper thighs , about 24" mid-thigh ....... not all fat Laughing Out Loud )

Don't want a pair sized for chicken legs Worried Laughing Out Loud

Haven't E-Mailed them a question about the boots yet as this is how I spend too fast: Get in touch with the supplier, ask a question, break down and buy it sooner than I should !

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 1:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Oh, do you have their high boots ? Or do you plan to get any ? I also have tree trunks for legs and I would need to be sure that they would fit at calf and thigh level. ( 17" calves and 27" upper thighs , about 24" mid-thigh ....... not all fat Laughing Out Loud )

Don't want a pair sized for chicken legs Worried Laughing Out Loud

Haven't E-Mailed them a question about the boots yet as this is how I spend too fast: Get in touch with the supplier, ask a question, break down and buy it sooner than I should !


No, and probably, but will now ask these questions first. I'm about the same size... 33 inch inseam, 6'3" tall.

For the same reason, I'll wait to ask until I'm ready to make a purchase.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Staberg wrote:
For waht it worth.


It's worth a lot! Great info, Daniel.... I really appreciate it. That kind of detail makes a definite difference!

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 6:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:
I am a bit surprised by this... Worried

Does it look as though the edges would normally have been finished, or cut and hope the felt nature would keep it straight? I'm curious, as this is (was?) an item of interest to me.

I just recieved another package from them as well... braies, hosen, shirt, St. George medal, and linnen cotte. All are quite nice (hosen is a bit tight in the calves and thighs, but I have tree trunks for legs). Past clothing items (low boots, turnshoes) have also been just fine.


The wool isn't felted. I don't know if it's 100% wool or not. It doesn't feel quite the same as the 100% wool that my wife made my recent tunic out of. As I told you before, my wife is an excellent seamstress and she wasn't impressed by the quality of the piece when compared to the price. She's working on our clothing for the trip down to Texas and I wanted to save her a bit of trouble by purchasing this item. We'll have to go a different route. I had considered putting a little fray-check on the edges, but in the end I decided that I'm no longer going to "modify" sub-standard products. If it isn't acceptable out of the box it's going back.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 7:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
I had considered putting a little fray-check on the edges, but in the end I decided that I'm no longer going to "modify" sub-standard products. If it isn't acceptable out of the box it's going back.


I'm adopting this myself, actually... I used to be somewhat tolerant or shrug off something that wasn't quite right. I'm getting quite particular, as my collection continues to evolve and improve in quality, my tolerances also have become a good bit tighter.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 8:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick;

You might check out the topic by Jessica Finley about a source of fine wool: You probably have seen this anyway, just a reminder if you haven't. Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 9:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Patrick;

You might check out the topic by Jessica Finley about a source of fine wool: You probably have seen this anyway, just a reminder if you haven't. Big Grin


Yes I have, but thanks just the same. I've already ordered a few yards of this and that!

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 9:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:
I'm adopting this myself, actually... I used to be somewhat tolerant or shrug off something that wasn't quite right. I'm getting quite particular, as my collection continues to evolve and improve in quality, my tolerances also have become a good bit tighter.


It really has nothing to do with becoming more discerning, it has to do with my B.S. tolerance being at near zero these days. I once had a well-known and highly respected smith arbitrarily change the design on a custom order because he thought it would look neat. The resulting sword, while of high quality, was drastically different from the historic example that I wanted the sword based on. To be fair the maker did offer to remake it if I wasn't happy with it but at the time I didn't feel comfortable questioning his decision. At the time I was happy to get a sword from such a well-known and high-profile maker so I really didn't say anything, and have regretted it in certain ways ever since. I didn't receive the product I was paying for and I should have.

I've just decided that if I'm paying for a service I should receive that service. We all have a tendency to turn these transactions into personal affairs. We know a lot of the makers and vendors and we consider them friends. Consequently we put up with more than we would in any other business venture. These are the same people who routinely break promises, miss deadlines, and make decisions that would be considered as totally unacceptable in any other business. I recently had another company once again miss a promised deadline on a long standing project. Consequently I've pretty much crossed that project off of my list and don't ever expect to see it. That experience will also heavily influence my decision to do any business with that company in the future regardless of personal feelings. I've come to the conclusion that it has to be business first, and personal relations, if any, should come a distant second. If it isn't right it goes back. I'm perfectly willing to spread my money around. The money is afterall the bottom line. I work hard for it and I'd like to give it to those who deserve it. The whole attitude of putting up with less than adequate performance out of a desire to be supportive is no longer working for me.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus


Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Thu 28 Jul, 2005 11:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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David Quivey




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 10:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excellent sentiment Patrick - and even when one does put the money issue aside, buying less than adequate products and doing nothing about it only encourages people to sell less than adequate products. I've worked with and handled wools of many weights and qualities reenacting other periods, and I can only echo what Daniel Staberg has already said - the dagged edges weren't finished because if they shouldn't have needed finishing, if Revival had used a hood-wieght broadcloth. The fact that the edges did fray shows both that the material wasn't the right weave for the job, and that they did not appear to care enough to make the necessary adjustments in construction!

Yoiks, well that's one review for Revival Clothing....
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 10:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Quivey wrote:
Excellent sentiment Patrick - and even when one does put the money issue aside, buying less than adequate products and doing nothing about it only encourages people to sell less than adequate products. I've worked with and handled wools of many weights and qualities reenacting other periods, and I can only echo what Daniel Staberg has already said - the dagged edges weren't finished because if they shouldn't have needed finishing, if Revival had used a hood-wieght broadcloth. The fact that the edges did fray shows both that the material wasn't the right weave for the job, and that they did not appear to care enough to make the necessary adjustments in construction!

Yoiks, well that's one review for Revival Clothing....


To be fair, this isn't the first item I've purchased from them and I have been satisfied with the others. As with anything, mileage varies. As long as a refund is made after the product is returned I won't hesiate to do business with them again.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Gordon Clark




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2005 5:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Quivey wrote:
Excellent sentiment Patrick - and even when one does put the money issue aside, buying less than adequate products and doing nothing about it only encourages people to sell less than adequate products. I've worked with and handled wools of many weights and qualities reenacting other periods, and I can only echo what Daniel Staberg has already said - the dagged edges weren't finished because if they shouldn't have needed finishing, if Revival had used a hood-wieght broadcloth. The fact that the edges did fray shows both that the material wasn't the right weave for the job, and that they did not appear to care enough to make the necessary adjustments in construction!

Yoiks, well that's one review for Revival Clothing....


There are several issues here - overall quality, suitability for a particular application, and value for money. Manufacturers always trade off materials and labor against price, it is a constant struggle. I think that Patrick (correct me if I'm wrong) thought the product would be suitable and had a reasonable expectation about the level of quality of the item based on the purchase price. He did not receive what he thought he would get, so it is mostly a value for money issue.

Reenactors have to consider all these though, there are very good values out there that are not suitable for recreating history. A $30 sturdy cotton tunic may be a good value, but it is not a re-creation of something a medieval man at arms would have worn. A $100 sword from India may be a great value, but not suitable for cutting practice. These manufacturers are not producing shoddy products, the products may just not be suitable for a persons needs. They are "less than adequate" for a particular application, but that is not really the manufacturers fault (though it is often the marketers fault - though that is a different issue).

As consumers, I think we should have reasonable expectations, do some research to determine if we believe a product will meet hem, and be willing to speak up - sending it back is a good way Happy if they aren't met. As reenactors or sword collectors, or whatever, if we are willing to pay sufficient money for a company to produce a suitable product, they will produce it.

Gordon
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Christian Henry Tobler
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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2005 8:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Patrick,

First of all let us say that we deeply regret that you are not happy with your wool hood. If you contact us and send it back we will be happy to refund the purchase price as well as the shipping. It is very important to us that you be happy with your clothing and if not we will do what we can to insure your satisfaction.

Since there seems to be some question about the material used in this product we feel the need to clarify that we used a 100% fulled wool to make this hood. Fulling is basically a similar process to felting, but not taken as far - so that the surface of the wool has a softer, brushed hand but doesn't have the stiffness or extreme denseness that often comes with completely felted wool. A minimal amount of loose threads on the edge is to be expected on this type of garment. The reason we choose this fabric was that it makes for a comfortable garment that resists major fraying and we could offer it at reasonable price. It is a continuing challenge for us to find quality fabrics at affordable prices so as to provide quality clothing to the historical reenactment community. But, since you find the product is not as you expected we are happy to accept the return.

We think you will find there are few if any vendors that offer dagged, wool hoods with finished edges. Often, the reason for this is that best way to finish a dagged edge, and the only way to do it so that there is no visible machine stitching, is to completely line it. In order to do this, you have to individually turn each dag and press it. While this gives a beautiful result, with dags as complicated as we use in our wool hood, it takes hours and we can't produce a garment like that for an affordable price. Another, even more period authentic, alternative is to hand stitch one of several overcast styles stiches all around the end.

For a completely finished dagged edge we do offer our reversible silk hood. If you look at this garment on our website you will notice that the dags are much more simple in shape for the reasons stated above.

If there are any further concerns about this or any of our products please contact us at csr@revivalclothing.com.

Very best regards,

Christian Tobler
Revival Clothing

Christian Henry Tobler
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2005 8:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian,

Thank you for the response and explanation. This particular product did not meet my expectations so it's coming back to you. However, this is the first purchase that I have made from Chivalry/Revival that I have not been satisfied with. I continue to have confidence in your company.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2005 8:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon wrote:
He did not receive what he thought he would get, so it is mostly a value for money issue.


That's pretty much it Gordon. Since I have an accomplished in-house seamstress I normally don't purchase things like this. I was simply trying to save my wife a bit of time and effort. Knowing that I can have her make a similar item for a fraction of the cost, and comparing that knowledge to the quality of the piece, it simply isn't acceptable to me. In fact, this issue is something I had wondered about when I first examined the photos on Revival's website. I took a chance and it didn't pay off for me personally. This item might be worth it to someone who doesn't have access to any other resources. I'm not relating this experience as a condemnation of Revival Clothing. I relating this information so others can form an expectation of the product, and decide if it will meet their needs. Afterall, when compared to similar products sold by companies like MRL this hood is quite nice.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2005 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glad that Christian gave us a good explanation about the issues involved and that Patrick put in perspective the reasons this product wasn't for him.

What I like the most is that the issue was not just ignored: Hoping it would just go away and that the refund policy is reasonable. I'm glad because I do plan to buy more stuff from them eventually and this does inspire confidence.

In some cases it may be good to ask a few questions, if one has some, by E-Mailing if one has special concerns or fitting issues.


A bit off topic to the topic:

Oh, and I still love the Linen Gambison I bought a while back: Might get a spare but I wish they would make one in black as the natural coloured one does get to " LOOK " dirty with only one wearing of my Hauberks: Now I don't mind washing it if it got really sweaty, but this kind of "dirt " isn't really dirt as far as I'm concerned just wear marks / smudges Wink

A nice black or dark grey would only need cleaning when it got " RIPE " Razz Laughing Out Loud

Not a problem if used as intended for underarmour use but I do find it comfortable to wear around the house and that Hauberk dirt is Blush when answering the door for a pizza delivey Wink Eek! Laughing Out Loud

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Anton de Vries





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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2005 3:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I wish they would make one in black


From their website: "Colors: Natural, Black Natural, Dark Red and Blue"

Or am I overlooking something?
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2005 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anton;

Where you looking at the cotton Gambison or the linen one !?

Last time I looked the Linen Gambison was available only in red and natural fibre: When I bought mine a few months ago the red was out of stock.

I will go have a look at the site later: Actually I hope you are right about the black Laughing Out Loud

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