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Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 7:08 am    Post subject: Who's the Butchest, Pt 1         Reply with quote

Because I'm bored, I have fallen to the temptation of transfering one of the clasics from my native, norwegian forum to this larger, international forum. (globalization and all that...)
Every forum needs at least one silly debate to keep things cosy. Traditionaly this takes the form of "who would win of a european knight and a samurai?" This is of course a real silly question, and way boring.
This debate relates purely to the butchness factor of the contestants, not combat performance. Also, the categories are a lot better...


In the fist category we get down to basics. Literaly...

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 7:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Who's the butchest?
Part 1
Neikid guys with big shields


Contestant One:
The Greeks


Yup. He's neikid, he's got a big shield, he is coverd in olive oil. He's also wearing armour, which can be seen as a sign of sissyness, but on the other hand, it lets him kill more persians before he dies.
Tough call


Contestant two
The Picts


He's neikid, he's blue, and he's got the biggest mustache north of, well, just about everyting. From this illustration, he looks like he's waxing his legs, which is not butch at ALL, but this could be artistic convention...


So, ladies and gentlemen your coments and votes ?[/size]

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201


Last edited by Elling Polden on Thu 02 Jun, 2005 7:47 am; edited 2 times in total
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




Location: Gteborg Sweden
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rain today Elling!! Big Grin
Guys with snot brake (mustache) are hard one's (i have one) so i vote on that guy Cool

Frid o Frjd!
Patrik
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 8:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mohawks are butch. The Greek gets my vote.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Who's the Butchest, Pt 1         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
Every forum needs at least one silly debate to keep things cosy. Traditionaly this takes the form of "who would win of a european knight and a samurai?"

At the risk of being completely boring, I'm going to have to disagree with you. We really don't have a need for a silly debate on myArmoury.com. I'm not really aiming at "cozy" for this site. Cool

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J. Padgett




Location: In a comfy chair
Joined: 17 Nov 2003

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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Everyone knows the Picts were much more butch than the Greeks.
"The truth shall make ye fret."
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




Location: Gteborg Sweden
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 10:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That mohawk thing are a mustache brush Big Grin
Frid o Frjd!
Patrik
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G. Scott H.




Location: Arizona, USA
Joined: 22 Feb 2005

Posts: 410

PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Who's the Butchest, Pt 1         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Elling Polden wrote:
Every forum needs at least one silly debate to keep things cosy. Traditionaly this takes the form of "who would win of a european knight and a samurai?"

At the risk of being completely boring, I'm going to have to disagree with you. We really don't have a need for a silly debate on myArmoury.com. I'm not really aiming at "cozy" for this site. Cool


At least you seem to be taking it well. Happy I made the mistake of bringing up the Knight vs. Samurai bit over at "the other forum" (I had just joined at the time, and I didn't yet know better), and I was just about tarred, feathered, and run off the forum.... WTF?! Laughing Out Loud
As far as this debate goes: I'll go with the Pict. There's just something disturbing and wrong about a guy who smears his body with olive oil....(shudder) Eek! Laughing Out Loud
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 11:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To be honest, my comment was aimed at stopping this topic and getting people on-track again. There are plenty of sites on the 'net for this sort of thing.
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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 3:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dagnubbit, was not the one on blankvaapen.org sufficient? Razz

Johan Schubert Moen
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James Nordstrom




Location: Sacramento, CA
Joined: 18 Sep 2003

Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 10:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
To be honest, my comment was aimed at stopping this topic and getting people on-track again. There are plenty of sites on the 'net for this sort of thing.


Well, to help Nathan get this back on track.

The nude warriors in Greek art are an artistic convention. The victors, i.e. the Greeks, are usually shown with their unit showing. It is a sign powers, of victory. The victims, i.e. not Greeks, are usually shown with their unit covered sometimes with their backs to the viewer, most often with crossed legs symbolizing castration, defeat.

I knew that semester of electives would pay off on day.

If you want to know how Greeks dressed for battle just look to the Romans.

Cheers
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Joe Yurgil





Joined: 01 Jun 2004

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PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2005 6:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

....whereas the Picts were known to run into battle in there birthday suit I believe. I don't know about you but that seems to be pretty good psychological warfare right there. I bunch of angry naked blue guys would creep me out if i had to fight 'em. So now after my short effort to keep this arms related (or at least warfare related anyway), I will cast my vote for the Picts.
Sj, ar s ek fur minn.
Sj, ar s ek mur mina ok systur mina ok brur minn.
Sj, ar s ek allan minn frndgar.
Sj, kalla eim tl min.
Bija mr at taka minn sta hj eim slum Valhallar, ar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Joe Yurgil





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Posts: 122

PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2005 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ooo, didn't the Picts sort of "revere" their swords more highly than the Greeks too? Or was is just the Romans who saw there swords as just tools? This seems to make sense though as the Greeks would have then had armor (or perhaps more armor at least) to contend with which would have made there swords less efficiant. On the other hand the Picts would have had better luck butchering eachother if they had no armor. Just an observation.... and probably a wrong one.
Sj, ar s ek fur minn.
Sj, ar s ek mur mina ok systur mina ok brur minn.
Sj, ar s ek allan minn frndgar.
Sj, kalla eim tl min.
Bija mr at taka minn sta hj eim slum Valhallar, ar drengiligr menn munu lifa allan aldr.
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Gordon Frye




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2005 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

At the risk of getting into some really bizarre stuff here, speaking of artistic conventions, Greek Hoplites and nudity in battle: There is a very interesting, and quite unique, set of paintings on display in the Museum of the Palace of the Governors in Santa Fe, New Mexico. These paintings, refered to as "the Segesser Hide Paintings" were done in the first half of the 18th Century on buffalo hide, probably by a Pueblo Indian artist for one of the Spaniards who participated in the Villasur Expedition to the Plains in 1720. A Swiss Jesuit by name of Segesser somehow came to own these, and sent them home to Switzerland at the end of the 18th Century where they were stored until the 1980's when they were returned to Santa Fe.

The paintings seem to depict two separate incidents. First is a raid (probably by Tlaxcalan allies of the Spaniards) on a Lipan Apache village on the Plains. It has many interesting aspects to it, but it is the second painting that is of note here. It shows what is believed to be a battle that took place in 1720 between Spaniards and their Pueblo and Tlaxcalan allies, and the French and their Pawnee and Oto allies. (It's actually doubtful that any Frenchmen were present, but since the Spaniards got their butt's kicked, it was good for propaganda). Most of the Spaniard's allies have bows and arrows, while the Pawnee and Oto (and supposed Frenchmen) have flintlock fusils. All in all its a really, really nifty piece of artwork, as well as a wonderful, and rich portrayal of history.

I was fortunate enough to be a member of the symposium that studied these hide paintings, and was therefore able to get a very close look at the details of these paintings, and one of the things that became apparent was that a large number, perhaps even a majority of the Pawnee and Oto warriors (though I don't recall the illusory Frenchmen in this way) are depicted with erections. VERY WEIRD to me at the time. And I mean HUGE erections. It wasn't something that was mentioned much while we were looking at the paintings, needless to say. However, my patron (the fellow who had invited me to take part in the symposium), being the only combat veteran in the group, took note of this and really chose to focus on the phenomenon. His take on it was that it had a lot to do with the whole experience of combat, of manliness versus manliness, and that the immediacy of death, life and the total awareness of such during combat was being shown in a very graphic way by the Indian artist. Needless to say, he created quite a stir!

There is a fascinating book out, by Dr. David Gross, entitled "On Killing". It's a phsycological study not of death, but of the violent act of killing. One of the things discussed are the phsycological parallels between sexual intercourse and killing. Accordingly, it's not unusual to get a sexual rush from murder (thus explaining to some degree the various pathologies that combine both in one violent act). Furthermore, monkeys often show agression towards other males via erections, so we're not quite as far along as we might wish to believe.

Thus the whole concept of rushing nude into battle (with erections waving proudly, agressively and defiantly) is far from unusual, it's just that most "civilized" societies have chosed to distance ourselves from this. But it's still there, clothed in our thin garments of civilization, and only coming forth on occasion, and then usually being quicky hushed up least the real word get out. As I said, pretty bizarre stuff!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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