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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 12:09 pm    Post subject: Why the price differnce?         Reply with quote

http://albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextge...re-xvi.htm

http://albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextge...ht-xii.htm

Why is one 70 dollars more then the other? Is the more defined taper much more difficult to produce? Hilt wise they seem very similar.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can you see that the Squire has more crispness of detail on its fittings? Look at the pommel and imagine a grinder getting in there to do the clean up. Now look at the Knight with the same thing in mind. Do you see that the Squire has a more complex grip? All those risers are put in there by human hands. Then there is blade geometry. The Squire has a well-defined center line that has to be maintained, compared to the Type XII's lenticular cross-section.

For more information on the difference between blade sections of a Type XII and a Type XVI sword, read our spotlight articles on the subject.

I'm not a sword-maker, but these are my thoughts.

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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 12:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't answer directly or with authority, but I can take a good stab at answering this.

They are actually quite different pieces. The Squire is slightly longer, which would take more time to grind and finish. It also has a much more difficult grip to fit. It's more than likely in the amount of hands-on time that it takes to put the Squire together as opposed to the Knight. I haven't seen a Squire firsthand, so I cannot comment on it's intricacies.

Again, best guess. I'll see these pieces side by side soon, so could comment more directly on differences, but this is my best guess from the info I have.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Michael Sigman
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Location: New Glarus, WI
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Nathan and Aaron. You guys are correct. It takes more time to finish the Squire then the knight. The difference in price is due to the labor involved. Big Grin
Mike Sigman
Albion Swords
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Alexander Ren




Location: Florida
Joined: 18 Apr 2005

Posts: 153

PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is the labor the reason for the difference in the number of swords being produced as well? The knight in a limited edition of 1,000 swords versus the squire as 500 swords?
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 1:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexander Ren wrote:
Is the labor the reason for the difference in the number of swords being produced as well? The knight in a limited edition of 1,000 swords versus the squire as 500 swords?

I'm not Albion, but since I'm on a role I'll put my uninformed two-cents in (what else is new?) on this issue too: it seems to me that the more specialized the sword model, the more limited it is. This seems to allow them the possibility of re-releasing a similar model with a different (and, again, specialized) hilt configuration as a new model. The more generic models, such as the Type XII Knight or Type XIIa Baron, have a larger run because they'll likely appeal to a broader audience and generate more sales than something more specialized and sitting in a niche market.

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Michael Sigman
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Location: New Glarus, WI
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 1:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are a lot of factors that go into what models have what production quantity. Popularity and complexity is just a couple of them.
Mike Sigman
Albion Swords
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Building on what Nathan is thinking, and speculating on the "other factors" Mike mentioned, I'll take another stab here, too. What the heck...

These pieces take a lot of research and development. Some, such as the Museum Line pieces, take MUCH more than others. I would say there is some balance struck between cost and recovery of these expenses (both financial and man-hour).

One thing that is going to be interesting to see in the future is when a piece phases out and gets replaced by another similar piece. In the case of the new longswords, there are a number coming out at once. I'm personally having a difficult time deciding which of them I want. Knowing me, I'll end up with more than one of these distinct, but similar pieces. Another example would be the Sempach and Landgraf. I have the Landgraf, but really like the Sempach as well. Of course, I won't be able to call Mike up and place a standing order for "one of everything you guys produce", though both of us have joked about it, somewhat seriously.

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough...

-Aaron Schnatterly
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 2:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do you think it would be possible for Albion to produce a sort of sword inbetween the next gen and the squires? A full "ultrasharp" with no frills except the blade? Something like the practical katana for the serious western matrial artist on a budget? Sure it would cost more then the PK.... How much more would it cost Albion to machine say, a FULL sword edge onto a squireline?

Alright, Squirelines are designed to be blunts and blance as such, so maybe to do the above and the MATH to make it handle the way Albion thinks it should

What do you guys think?[/i]

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 2:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
Alright, Squirelines are designed to be blunts and blance as such, so maybe to do the above and the MATH to make it handle the way Albion thinks it should

What do you guys think?[/i]


Actually, the Squire Line swords aren't blunts, per se. They aren't normally crafted to the level of sharpness as the Next Gens are, but can be sharpened for something like $25. In order to get the blade as sharp and as highly finished as the Next Gens, you would need a Next Gen blade. The cost and time put into it would bring it up to the cost of the Next Gen piece... As such, I'd say no.

The true blunts are the Maestro Line, which have not yet been released. (but are anxiously awaited by a lot of us here, definitely including me).

-Aaron Schnatterly
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 2:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know. So what do we think it would cost to offer a bare bones heavy cutter from Albion with about the finish level of the squireline? Relatively simple blades, but with the full-on edge geometery? It might cost more then the extra 25, but I wouldn't very muhc like to know how much.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 2:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The 13th C Squire Line seems to fit your bill, if sharpened. It's $350, add $25 for sharpening, and $25 for shipping. It's comparable to either the Baron or Duke - offhand, I don't recall which.

Outside of that, man... we can't speak for Albion. You could email Mike at quest@albionarmorers.com and ask the source...

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 2:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
Do you think it would be possible for Albion to produce a sort of sword inbetween the next gen and the squires? A full "ultrasharp" with no frills except the blade? Something like the practical katana for the serious western matrial artist on a budget? Sure it would cost more then the PK.... How much more would it cost Albion to machine say, a FULL sword edge onto a squireline?

Alright, Squirelines are designed to be blunts and blance as such, so maybe to do the above and the MATH to make it handle the way Albion thinks it should

What do you guys think?[/i]


I think it would be a horribly ill-advised idea. Why would they do this? They already have a giant line of products and every time something is added, a whole slew of things have to be considered. They've defined their focus and each of their products is consistent with that focus. The squire line is the biggest departure from their focus and comes somewhat close, already, to what you're describing when they are ordered sharp.

You're describing basically an ATrim sword: a sword that's got well-defined dynamic properties with "practical" fittings that don't follow those found in historic examples but are aimed at martial artists rather than historical arms collectors. Why would Albion create a line of products that are already well-represented in the tiny marketplace? Wouldn't it be better to try to attack a niche that isn't fully represented by an already established maker?

The makers in this industry are all competing for the dollar of the same small consumer base. To attract customers, they each have to find a unique niche and design philosophy. There simply isn't enough cash out there to be standing squarely on each other's toes.

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Michael P Smith





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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 3:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with Nathan.... if you want a serious cutter and are less concerned about the finish, I'd go for an ATrim. These bad boys are perfect for what your talking about, plus the standard models have dismountable hilts for easy maintenence.

That's the niche for ATrim. Albion is more focused on excellent historical weapons.

Mike
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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 4:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael P Smith wrote:
I agree with Nathan.... if you want a serious cutter and are less concerned about the finish, I'd go for an ATrim. These bad boys are perfect for what your talking about, plus the standard models have dismountable hilts for easy maintenence.

That's the niche for ATrim. Albion is more focused on excellent historical weapons.

Mike


Dismountable hilts? Oh my....

I may have to do just that. My main complain about Atrim is (No offence to Mr Trim) but his web presence is a little weird. There are around three differnt sites, and it's hard to tell what's current and what isn't.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 4:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
My main complain about Atrim is (No offence to Mr Trim) but his web presence is a little weird. There are around three differnt sites, and it's hard to tell what's current and what isn't.


From the Auld Dog himself - check this link out:

Angus Trim Direct

That's the most current.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 5:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George,

Having handled both swords I can agree with the general assessment.

The Squire is a bit more complex in its overall geometry. I wouldn't say that the fittings were any crisper, but there are a few more bevels to be conscious of during the finishing process. There's also the additional grip risers to consider, as has already been mentioned, as well as the blades central ridge that has to be maintained and defined.

Then again, these questions might be better directed to the people who make the swords rather than posted here for general speculation.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
Do you think it would be possible for Albion to produce a sort of sword inbetween the next gen and the squires? A full "ultrasharp" with no frills except the blade? Something like the practical katana for the serious western matrial artist on a budget? Sure it would cost more then the PK.... How much more would it cost Albion to machine say, a FULL sword edge onto a squireline?

Alright, Squirelines are designed to be blunts and blance as such, so maybe to do the above and the MATH to make it handle the way Albion thinks it should

What do you guys think?[/i]


Doesn't Albion already manufacture and have in development enough models?

We can't eat our cake and have it too, let's quit trying.

Then again, try asking Albion directly instead of needlessly speculating here.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 5:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm only partially addicted to ATrim swords. While I own only two, there are several more I'd like. I could say that of three or four more sources as well.

Gus' stuff in done in the spirit of and inspired by swords from the past. His Katana are very well thought out and measured to originals. The effort on the katan is collaborative but the end result looks quite good.

You can get a bare bones sword or package it just about any way you want.

Gus will do a peened construction on request and his bare blades end up in some interestingly historical looking pieces.

As far as the take down goes, I guess it's novel but there is little need to take them apart unless you are changing components.
One of my swords has been apart twice in five years, once to rewrap the grip (early Albion deerskin). The two year old (if that) has been apart once (yes, for curiousity sake). Very infrequent need to tighten them once settled.

It is a little confusing to chase down all of them. I count four active sites right now CF, Lee, ASA and the new one. Heck, Dancing Giant still had one left recently.

A good representation is easily scrolled at the CF site (sabers soon?) Christian will hook anyone up with a customized Trim or Albion.

ASA for the Katana, general sales (and "special projects?)

The rapier hilts at the direct site look great.

My old classic Trim XIIIa has proven to be near indestructible and still a favorite cutter. The 1319 variant is a reall joy too, if there is a single category Gus excels at, I would vote XIIas but every model seems to have fans.

Long stuff, short stuff, kurved with a saya or sabered to suit.
Something for everyone.

Anyway, not an addict but a happy owner.

Albion is going to get me yet.

Cheers

GC
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Chris Lampe




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 6:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
Michael P Smith wrote:
I agree with Nathan.... if you want a serious cutter and are less concerned about the finish, I'd go for an ATrim. These bad boys are perfect for what your talking about, plus the standard models have dismountable hilts for easy maintenence.

That's the niche for ATrim. Albion is more focused on excellent historical weapons.

Mike


Dismountable hilts? Oh my....

I may have to do just that. My main complain about Atrim is (No offence to Mr Trim) but his web presence is a little weird. There are around three differnt sites, and it's hard to tell what's current and what isn't.


I would add that while Angus Trim Direct is the most current website, atrimasa.com has the most extensive line-up of current swords.

When I was choosing my Atrim 3 months ago Gus was open to resurrecting models that are still shown on allsaintsblades.com but are not currently offered at AtrimASA.com. Of course, that was 3 months ago and you would have to ask him in regards to a specific model now. AllSaints by far has the best selection, descriptions, and pictures but they are no longer in operation and you have to order through the 3 aformentioned vendors.
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