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Scott H.




Location: Illinois
Joined: 10 May 2004

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Mon 30 May, 2005 3:13 pm    Post subject: Please help my scabbard!!         Reply with quote

Ok- I've managed to put together a wooden scabbard for my Baron. It was a perfect fit when I had it clamped, but after gluing it together my sword won't go all the way in. It's sticking out about an inch. It feels like the part that's getting stuck is near the tip of the sword. Is there ANY way to fix this or is my whole project defunct now? Worried

As a side note- One really begins to appreciate the subtleties of the tapers of these swords when carving out the wood slats to match. Thick to thin, angles change, shapes appear and disappear. I was amazed. Eek!

Now back to the matter at hand... Can anyone please help?

Thanks in advance,
Scott
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
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PostPosted: Mon 30 May, 2005 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Please help my scabbard!!         Reply with quote

Scott H. wrote:
Ok- I've managed to put together a wooden scabbard for my Baron. It was a perfect fit when I had it clamped, but after gluing it together my sword won't go all the way in. It's sticking out about an inch. It feels like the part that's getting stuck is near the tip of the sword. Is there ANY way to fix this or is my whole project defunct now? Worried
Now back to the matter at hand... Can anyone please help?


Maybe - I hope so.

One of three things probably happened.

    It picked up some humidity and swelled. If this is the case, this will be a transient problem as the wood gains and loses it's moisture.
    Glue got into the void. This would stink, as it will be difficult to get it out all the way down there.

    The void wasn't as open as you thought it was - wasn't carved out quite enough and the clamps weren't as tight during your test fit as the glue is now.


The first issue, as I mentioned, may come and go on it's own.
The second and third really are an issue, as they won't clear on their own. When you insert the blade, it obviously makes contact. Do you know if this is on the edge, or on the flat? That may help pin down which is which. If it is glue, you MAY be able to non-forcefully work the blade in and out, cutting into the glue. This may risk dulling the blade, though... If it is on the flat, I'm not sure what you might be able to do without making odd tools or affixing abrasives to the blade (neither I would recommend).

Given the bonding strength of wood glue, it isn't very likely that you would be able to separate them and rework it. If you could, it might be less work (and yes, I know it's a ton of work) to start over, and chalk it up as a learning experience.

In making my projects, I left a little bit of extra wiggle room towards the tip of the blade, and gave the very point a little leeway to avoid jamming it into anything. The place where my blade fits closest is during the first 2 inches at the mouth.

I hate that you are having problems...

Scott H. wrote:
As a side note- One really begins to appreciate the subtleties of the tapers of these swords when carving out the wood slats to match. Thick to thin, angles change, shapes appear and disappear. I was amazed. Eek!


Truly works of art, aren't they?

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Scott H.




Location: Illinois
Joined: 10 May 2004

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Mon 30 May, 2005 5:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank Aaron!

I think it's a combination of swelling and glue ooze. Before gluing the halves together I oiled the sword areas in the wood slats. Then, after gluing, and using the clamps, the center line on both sides of the scabbard were depressed inward slightly, making the whole thing concave. Which, as you mentioned, might be the insides actually swelling with the oil. As the day has progressed, that concavity is lessening somewhat, and I've gained about a half an inch insertion. But that might also be due to me jamming the sword in and out like a pogo stick for about fifteen minutes. Worried It gets really stuck in the bottom though and is very hard to pull back out.

Any other suggestions out there? I'd hate to trash all that work with only a half an inch to go. Laughing Out Loud Worried

Thanks again,
Scott
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 30 May, 2005 5:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott H. wrote:
I think it's a combination of swelling and glue ooze. Before gluing the halves together I oiled the sword areas in the wood slats. Then, after gluing, and using the clamps, the center line on both sides of the scabbard were depressed inward slightly, making the whole thing concave. Which, as you mentioned, might be the insides actually swelling with the oil. As the day has progressed, that concavity is lessening somewhat, and I've gained about a half an inch insertion. But that might also be due to me jamming the sword in and out like a pogo stick for about fifteen minutes. Worried It gets really stuck in the bottom though and is very hard to pull back out.


Sounds somewhat promising...

Have you thinned and profiled it on the outside yet? That will remove some of the tension, and it may flex outward somewhat by that process. At the tip, though, it's glued and high-tensile... still, it may relax enough.

When I clamped mine to glue, I placed some of the waste material on either side of the slats to spread out the force. That avoided the point pressure generated by my clamps.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Scott H.




Location: Illinois
Joined: 10 May 2004

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 6:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Again thanks, Aaron!

I haven't shaped the outside completely yet, so there's still hope. And I should've thought about distributing the pressure of the clamps... Idea WTF?! But for my first scabbard I gotta say I think it's come along quite well. Even if it doesn't fit my sword Razz

Have a great day, Cool
Scott
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 8:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You're welcome, Scott!

I hope this works out right for you. It has been my experience that these projects are frustrating, but worthwhile. I also found that with each subsequent one, time decreases, and ability increases. This curve is pretty sharp in the beginning, but levels to a more gradual refinement of skills over time.

I would suggest finishing the tapering, and keep playing with it until it either works or you are ready to give up. Worst case, the experience gained will help a lot towards a second (and successful) attempt.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 9:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott;

If you take a metal coat hanger or heavy wire and make a small sharpened hook at the tip of the straitened coat hanger you might be able to scrape out some of that excess glue that OOZED out and caused the blockage. If the problem is not to extreme, with a little patience and cursing this might work. Also good if something ever gets jammed at the bottom of any scabbard. Eek! Big Grin

Also taping an abrasive cloth at the end of the wire might let you remove a little extra material from the inside walls ?
Just be carefull not to loose the abbrasive cloth by jamming it at the bottom of the scabbard.

Hope this helps.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those are some good tips, Jean. The sharpened hook/pick edge of the wire may work, kind of like a dental pick to scrape the crevises. My only concern is with the tight tolerance Scott used in carving out his core. If there isn't much space for anything but the thin blade edge, I'm not sure he'll be able to get even emory cloth into that sharp angled, tight space. If it were closer to the mouth...

Of course, I haven't seen the project piece, so he'll have to judge for himself if it will help or not.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Chris Goerner




Location: Roanoke, Virginia
Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Likes: 14 pages

Posts: 344

PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 4:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If everything else has failed, and you are at the point of throwing the scabbard away, here is one last idea you might try. Get a thin piece of metal -- about the same size and shape as your blade would be best. Heat it up with a torch, and slide it into the scabbard. The metal needs to be hot enough to sear the wood without being so hot as to char it. Since there won't be much oxygen inside the scabbard, you shouldn't have to worry about the wood actually catching fire (at least that's the theory). Eek!

DISCLAIMER: I have never attempted this myself, and can't say what it will do to the glue you've used. I have heard of people saving similar projects (but not scabbards) in this manner, but due to the potential for completely ruining the piece, would attempt this myself only after every other option has been exhausted! Even then, you may want to experiment on a mock-up first.

Though I've never heard anyone mention it, I would suggest keeping an eye on how far in you press the metal bar. It stands to reason that if it will sear away a bit of the wood, you could potentially push it all the way through the tip of the scabbard if you aren't careful.

Good luck, and remember... stop, drop and roll! Wink

Sic Semper Tyranus
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 4:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not a bad last-ditch plan, Chris. Of course, the primary issue is on safety. I know that goes without saying, but it's what I do for a living. (yup - I work hard to be this lazy! Razz )

Since only the business end would need to be heated, you could do a dry run, and place a few wraps of tape at the appropriate depth to stop at the mouth to prevent it from going too deep.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Jonathon Janusz





Joined: 20 Nov 2003

Posts: 467

PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2005 5:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This one's cake. Take the Baron over to dat dar bench grinder and shave a half inch off'a that thar pointy end. . . Laughing Out Loud Razz Wink

[diving for cover feeling way too punchy. . .]
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Jun, 2005 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Add that half-inch back at the throat as a separate piece? It'll be covered with leather and/or metal anyway, right? If the extra, unusable .5" you'll still have at the tip-end bothers you, just shorten and re-taper the outside of the scabbard at that end.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Jun, 2005 10:46 pm    Post subject: put some sandpaper on the sword...         Reply with quote

If the sword is binding near the scabbard mouth, you can fix this by sliding the sword in and out with some sand paper on the flat surface of the sword. Trim the paper to match the sword profile, about 6" to 8" long along the blades' length. If you don't know where it is binding, use a non-permanent marker and rub ink over the surface of the blade. Insert the blade until it binds and withdraw. You can see where the interference is by the location where most of the ink rubs off of the blade. There is no good fix if the interference is far down the blade. You really need the scabbard to fit snug within the first few inches of the blade from the guard.

You should be able to sand as far in as about 8" from the guard. I recommend using self adhesive sandpaper, however, I have been able to gradually work non-adhesive sandpaper as far in as the length of the paper (close to 10"). If you are not careful, you will easely oversand and create a loose scabbard. You can compensate buy coating the sword with water thinned (about 3 parts water to one part glue) wood glue and inserting. Be sure to clean wood glue off the blade immediately, as there is really no good way to clean it off once it sets up!

The total interference you need is represented in thousandths of an inch. Use 120 to 180 grit sand paper!
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Scott H.




Location: Illinois
Joined: 10 May 2004

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 6:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys!! A lot of great suggestions!! (Except for the one about taking off some of the blade Eek! Eek! Eek! ) Razz
I suppose I could just clip that end off in a paper cutter and use it a pocket knife WTF?! Laughing Out Loud

Anyway, I'll let you all know how it goes!

Thanks again,
Scott
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Jonathon Janusz





Joined: 20 Nov 2003

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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2005 4:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Seriously, though, best of luck. Another good trick I learned somewhere is if you have a bandsaw (or can get access to bandsaw parts), take two or three cut lengths of blade, sandwich them together by some means (epoxy/glue/solder/etc.), and you've got yourself one of the world's longest, thinnest, edge-on files. Coarser the blade, coarser the cut of the "file".
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