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G. Scott H.




Location: Arizona, USA
Joined: 22 Feb 2005

Posts: 410

PostPosted: Mon 23 May, 2005 4:37 pm    Post subject: Hot peening question.         Reply with quote

Seeing all the cool projects on this site has got me interested in doing more stuff myself. The two things of most interest to me are redoing grips and tangs. I thought I might try my hand at hot peening a few tangs on something cheap and small like the blade from Atlanta Cutlery pictured below. $13 a piece. My question is: does a standard propane torch produce enough heat to be effective for this type of work? Okay, I lied, two questions: also, what's the best way to keep the rest of the blade from overheating during this process? I've read of the wet-rag-around-the-blade method, but any other effective techniques? Thanks. Happy

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Scott Byler




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 20 Aug 2003

Posts: 209

PostPosted: Mon 23 May, 2005 11:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I imagine the standard propane torch might manage the heat requirement, if just barely. Ofcourse, I haven't tried it that way and haven't done a lot of hot peening overall, since as often as not the grip is a solid piece and has to be already in place.

I use the wet rag method myself, since it works well for me. And is easy and cheap. Other methods would include clamping the blade with some sort of heat sink or maybe buying some of specialty pastes that supposedly help keep heat spread to a minimum. (I haven't tried any of those so can't say a word if they work or not or what....)

In general, unless you are doing something really aggressive with your torch, you won't have to worry a lot that the heat will get that far down the blade, at least with enough heat to really mess with the heat treat. Like I said, though, this is in general...
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Peter Johnsson
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Location: Storvreta, Sweden
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PostPosted: Tue 24 May, 2005 1:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You will need an oxy-acetylen torch to do hot peening effectively.
Depending on the type of rivet you might not need to use heat: if the rivet head is small enough you might do it cold.
On a dagger you will not need a very substantial rivet head.

The fit between the hilt components and the tang is more important in this case. YOu want to go for a press fit, so that the rivet only locks things down. Then a relatively small rivet will do fine.

If you use a hot torch (a hotter torch will help you wiork quicker, thereby avoiding the heat to spread very far. Not that this is a problem for the temper of the blade, but still), you will have to make sure you normalize the rivet afterwards, or you wil enfd up with a very coarse grain in the rivet. It might even take some hardening if you´ve worked quickly. This is the opposite of a good quality rivet: coarse grain and martensite that is untempered= very brittle!
When you hot peen you *must* make sure you normalize afterwards and make sure there is no martensite left in the rivet head. Filing the rivet will tell you if it has taken hardening or not.

Done properly you can make very solid rivets with hot peening You also have the benefit of being able to forge the rivet head to shape )pyramidal, domed...)
On a dagger you might not have to do a hot peened rivet to get good solid mounting of the hilt.
The first key to success is a good firm and exact fit between the hilt components and the tang.

Good luck!
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G. Scott H.




Location: Arizona, USA
Joined: 22 Feb 2005

Posts: 410

PostPosted: Tue 24 May, 2005 10:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Scott and Peter. I was afraid I might need a hotter torch. I guess for a while I will try the cold peening method, since I want to start out on daggers anyway and work my way up to swords. I see what you mean, Peter, about possibly hardening the rivet, when I get to the point where I'm using heat, I will certainly need to experiment around a bit to find out what works (part of the fun Happy ). Also, I want to use mild steel stock for the hilt components (since I don't have the option of casting), any suggestions on suitable types of steel (1060, etc.)? Happy
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Eric Meulemans
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Location: Southern Wisconsin
Joined: 30 Nov 2003
Reading list: 18 books

Posts: 163

PostPosted: Tue 24 May, 2005 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

G. Scott H. wrote:
Thanks, Scott and Peter. I was afraid I might need a hotter torch.


In the interest of convenience and minimizing expense, you may wish to consider a MAPP torch. MAPP (methylacetylene-propadiene) gas is usually available wherever propane is sold and burns slightly hotter than propane in air. If you get a MAPP/Oxygen kit it really delivers a boost in temperature (Over 700 degrees F greater than propane in oxygen - although still less than an acetylene rig). MAPP can be used on its own, but be sure to use torch heads approved for MAPP gas.

As far as "heat" is concerned, propane gets plenty hot (almost 3, 500 degrees F) on its own, but keeping metal hot with it can be a challenge because there is usually an insufficient *volume* of heat being applied. In a pinch, I've gotten around this by using multiple torches (they're cheap) simultaneously or using homebuilt burners. Obviously, this calls for some extra care. As always, don't neglect proper safety precautions.

-Eric
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G. Scott H.




Location: Arizona, USA
Joined: 22 Feb 2005

Posts: 410

PostPosted: Tue 24 May, 2005 1:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Eric. I'll give that a look. I was pricing oxy-acetylene rigs online the other day, and they can get fairly pricey. I've heard of the multiple propane method, but it was in relation to the hardening of hammers (frizzens) for flintlocks. I think I'd prefer to go the MAPP route. Thanks again. Happy
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Reading list: 67 books

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PostPosted: Tue 24 May, 2005 1:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

G. Scott H. wrote:
Thanks, Eric. I'll give that a look. I was pricing oxy-acetylene rigs online the other day, and they can get fairly pricey. I've heard of the multiple propane method, but it was in relation to the hardening of hammers (frizzens) for flintlocks. I think I'd prefer to go the MAPP route. Thanks again. Happy


Yeah, Scott... MAPP is a) cheap, b) easier to store, and c) quite accessible. Ox/Ac is a different animal... If you don't really have a long-term need for a rig, it'd be a lot of expense and hassle.

I've never used MAPP... don't know how it compares heat-wise, but if it is that much hotter than propane, I think I know what I'll be using for my little projects.

-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________

Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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G. Scott H.




Location: Arizona, USA
Joined: 22 Feb 2005

Posts: 410

PostPosted: Tue 24 May, 2005 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:
G. Scott H. wrote:
Thanks, Eric. I'll give that a look. I was pricing oxy-acetylene rigs online the other day, and they can get fairly pricey. I've heard of the multiple propane method, but it was in relation to the hardening of hammers (frizzens) for flintlocks. I think I'd prefer to go the MAPP route. Thanks again. Happy


Yeah, Scott... MAPP is a) cheap, b) easier to store, and c) quite accessible. Ox/Ac is a different animal... If you don't really have a long-term need for a rig, it'd be a lot of expense and hassle.

I've never used MAPP... don't know how it compares heat-wise, but if it is that much hotter than propane, I think I know what I'll be using for my little projects.


I haven't worked with MAPP before either, but it sounds like a feasible (and cheaper/safer) alternative to acetylene. Here's some good basic info: http://www.tpub.com/steelworker1/34.htm Happy
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Reading list: 67 books

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Posts: 1,244

PostPosted: Tue 24 May, 2005 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

G. Scott H. wrote:
I haven't worked with MAPP before either, but it sounds like a feasible (and cheaper/safer) alternative to acetylene. Here's some good basic info: http://www.tpub.com/steelworker1/34.htm Happy


That was a lot of good info on MAPP, Scott! Thanks!

I knew the LEL was similar to acetalene, but I didn't know the UEL was so much lower. It's also stable getting nudged and prodded (not that I abuse compressed gas cylinders, mind you) so that makes it a sweeter deal. Oh, yeah... and it's all day long at Lowes or Home Depot, probably even at Wal-Mart. Since my torch will handle both, it's very economical, too.

Yup, I'm sold. Propane helped, but it doesn't give the output I really wanted. This resulted in longer heating times. This should help a bundle.

-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________

Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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